ThreeWay: Shoes and Chivalry
order the wrong things, then they don't get it and just seem controlling, at which point you run for your life. (Or in my case, date them for another year or two.)
Prof C: HA. Yes, that's the lesbian way, my sister.
KL: Do you order for ladies?
Prof C: Until they get it right one time, then you dump them. Not characteristically, but I like doing it. Diana has to be a really good mood to let that one fly, I think. Hahaha.
KL: I think she'd put up a fight but secretly love it.
Prof C: Yes, she loves it. So, all of these things make you feel taken care of? Or what?
KL: I find a butch ordering the entire meal to be so fiercely hot I can't even stand it.
Prof C: And butches love demonstrating how lesbian chivalry is superior to male chivalry.
A primer, for the uninitiated.
KL: SO.FUCKING.TRUE.
Prof C: But we forgot: g) Opening car doors and pulling out chairs.
KL: Just like high femmes are always coiffed better.
Prof C: ABSOLUTELY 
Telling femmes they look beautiful after they get dressed.
KL: I always feel like it's awkward with the chair pull. Do you know what I mean? The timing is always off.
Prof C: It's awful, yes. I don't usually go for that one.
KL: Like you push it in a little too soon or two late, so the femme is just squatting awkwardly.
Forget the chair, let's just do it against the wall again.
Prof C: I like opening doors way more.
KL: Yes. Here's what's annoying.
Prof C: Maybe the chair pull is outdated.
KL: I think it is.
Prof C: That was one of our objectives: to discern appropriateness/relevance.
KL: GOOD CALL. We're making progress.
Prof C: Hopefully. Butches should just sit down last instead of dealing with a chair. Taking coats however, and putting them back on, is totally fun!
KL: I think that earnestly asking your femme date a lot of questions about herself, as a means of seeming interested in who she is as a person (as opposed to just being on the hunt for a quality BJ) is really dated. Yes, I love the coat put-on and pull-off.
Prof C: Yeah, just staring at someone's cleavage and
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My two cents: Can chivalry be
My two cents: Can chivalry be hot and fun? Most definitely. Is it hot and fun when it's codified in a rigid way, becoming a set of expectations, and not authentically connected to real consideration of what the human being you're interacting with might enjoy? Not at all, for me.
Is there anything hot or fun about butch women expecting that they're always going to have to/get to be the one on the active side of it, because I look feminine? For me, the only thing hot or fun about that expectation is defying it. I hold doors for everyone (and I'm under 5' tall, and don't do heels). I hold umbrellas, too (yes, even though I'm shorter than everyone--there are ways). I have had to become a really quick hand at snatching the check in a restaurant (servers never assume I'm going to be the one to pay, being that I'm "the pretty one").
It's true that all of these "manners" moments can serve as a preview for other ways of relating--sex, yes, and also other kinds of intimacy. That's why a woman who thinks that my femininity necessarily equals passivity will always bore me, while a woman who reacts well to her/dominant expectations being upended will get my further consideration.
Making the equation always shake out so that the "more masculine" party always does the chivalry, while the "more feminine" party receives it--it just seems like bland, boring, odd nostalgia for the bad old days. I'm not willing to let other women have all the fun just because I supposedly don't "look the part."
Is there anything more fun than buying dinner for a butch woman who fully expected to pick up the check--watching her get flustered, engaging in the repartee that necessarily ensues? Sure; but not anything I'd do on a first date.
Howdy stranger. Good to see
Howdy stranger. Good to see you. :-)
I think chivalry should go both ways. But that's because I think what chivalry really is (or at least should be) is common courtesy. I don't have a problem with someone holding the door for me but I also want them to be okay accepting the same from me.
nice to see you again ;)
funny just had a similar convo with a reluctant femme-identified femme.
I think butch / femme needs to be redefined in A) visual and B) psychological/emotional and C) intellectial catagories.
I think lots of confusion and resentment come up around "roles", "identitiy", and "practice."
what sayeth you?
tweet tweet @gracemoon
Hey Robin and Grace, Thanks;
Hey Robin and Grace,
Thanks; good to see you again too! I'm ALMOST done with my novel, so may be back around these parts more often shortly.
Robin--Exactly. It's not a case of wanting things to be obsessively even-steven (i.e. the keeping track of whose turn it is joke), but rather openness to the possibility of reciprocity. Is anything hotter than reciprocity? I dunno.
Grace-Good luck with getting that redefinition to acquire any cultural traction. I think there's too much baggage and expectation at this point, and it may be a lost cause. But I'd probably be ALL ABOUT a diagram representing such a redefinition. I do love a diagram. And I do love toying with theory.
I'm pretty sure there are
I'm pretty sure there are hotter things than reciprocity but for the life of me I can't think of them right now. I'd be happy to explore the theory with a willing partner though. Anyone? Bueller?
I second the diagram idea. Come on, Grace, put your artistic talents to work on that one!
Courtliness :-)
The word for women who receive chivalry.
(Thank you, Mr. Sexsmith: http://www.sugarbutch.net/2008/12/define-courtly/)
* I'm dying from laughing so hard *
If I opened the car door for my gf, she would kick my ass. lol Without a doubt she'd say, 'what in the fuck do you think you're doing, have you lost your fuckin' mind?'. So, I'd rather not be humiliated in public. She's a black belt in some sort of Asian killing sport, and I'm a pacifist. She never let's me forget that.
Order dinner for her? You have got to be kidding me. She'd read me the riot act, then tell me what I wasn't getting for dessert. It's just not worth the sacrifice !!
The door
It's such a habit for me to open the car door, I do it for anyone riding with me, much to the amusement of my guy friends. A couple weeks ago I opened the door for one of my straight female friends and she was totally gushing and called me "such a gentleman" it was pretty funny. It makes me wonder if guys even do this stuff for their girls anymore??
And yes on the bugs.....I pretty much know when I hear my name being yelled from another room, there's a critter I'm supposed to come murder.
I like this three way
I am ALL for chivalry - yep, I order, but don't select. Make it special by talking with her about the items on the menu. Talking about food can be extremely sensuous...then when the waitress comes around, you immediately tell her what your lady will have and how she will have it. The doors are opened, the walk next to the curb, the pause in the walk and the look at only her when you tell her she is positively radiant.
I've got to admit I had never had women do a lot of those going out things for me....you know, do them by instinct.... things she automatically does ' cause it's who she is.....things she does naturally without thinking about them. It was always me......I once had a woman hale a taxi for me, open the door, and made sure I was in safely and on my way. Bother me? Heck no! Got to admit I liked it. In fact, it made me smile....laugh a bit inside....'cause I was just fixing to do it myself, and she beat me to it.
I really don't understand how someone can be so rude as to bonk someone 'cause they want to do something for them. In fact, I think that's just rude. You've got to allow a person to be themselves. If you don't like who they are....then, you don't like who they are. You have to let a woman be who she is....pay attention enough to feel what she likes and dislikes.....likes and dislikes to the degree that both of you will be happy. If you can tell you're coming on too strong for her, then simply back off a bit. I mean, if you didn't think that the two of you couldn't have a good time with each other, you wouldn't have been out with her in the first place.
So this chivalrous door of mine most certainly swings both ways. I simply love human women....relish in their distinct instincts. And more times than not, find myself hoping that there will be a second chance after the awkward first.
Twitter Time @kdhales
This blog made me laugh about myself
This blog made me laugh about myself because I had these various thoughts when reading it:
1. I can't hold the umbrella over someone to protect her from the rain because I'm too short.
2. I'm too much of a Midwesterner and believe people should watch the weather forecast so they don't get caught freezing in the cold.
3. I don't have enough savoir faire to order someone's meal fare including beverage.
4. I won't carry your purse because I have to carry my own heavy briefcase.
BUT, I will open the car door for you, if I am driving (this applies to anyone, male or female or in-between).
Still searching for the right brainy quote.
See if I remember my long comment...
1. I'll share an umbrella. Even though mine is quite tiny. Actually, that might be better than a large one.
2. Weather? What's that?
3. I'd walk out on any date who tried to order for me. I would never presume to do it for someone else. I find the idea patently offensive. If though, she knew what she wanted and had just left to go to the restroom and asked me to order for her while she was gone, different story.
4. I've carried a purse for a woman briefly when her hands were full. Or carried packages because they were heavy or there were lots of them. I offer (sometimes more than once) but I certainly wouldn't insist because I don't think of any woman (regardless of if she identifies as butch, femme or something altogether different) needs to be treated like a wilting flower.
I hold open doors for folks of all genders all the time. It's just polite (as Soonerterp pointed out). As for my car door, that's what the remote control is for.
I typed a long reply to this
I typed a long reply to this and lost it when my iphone's battery went dead. Grrr!
That iphone would never pass
That iphone would never pass chivalry 101.
Did you say this?
Was the gist of your long comment that the Art of Chivalry died with Minnesota?
Still searching for the right brainy quote.
Don't know about Robin's..
but it's the gist of my long winded comment - just pay no attention to me, I've already had a glass of vino!
Twitter Time @kdhales
Its OK.
You don't have to be chivalrous. You're Minnie! That is more than any woman could ask for.
Um huh!
I agree with that!
Twitter Time @kdhales
I think things may have been
I think things may have been a lot simpler in the middle ages when all you had to do was run around killing dragons.
That reminded me, doesn't the modern chivalry list include removing mice, spiders, bees, wasps, mosquitos, and any other small agressors bothering the lady? (Not the same as dragons I know, but I would love to hear what the sexual subtext of that one is!)
That's rich!
I am way less freaked out by most bugs than 99.9% of butches I've dated. I can't deal with cockroaches, though! Eugh. They are my entomological Achilles heel. Those guys and centi/millipede types.
Other than that though? Meh. Whatevs. In fact, I would prob have a pet tarantula if it weren't for CT's firm assertion that she will leave me if I get one.
No offence to trantula-loving
No offence to trantula-loving femmes intended, of course! I know some wonderfully crittur-confident feminine women. I also know some though, who feel no obligation to overcome their fear of polliwogs, but consider it should be the chivalrous duty of those men and butches around them to deal with such problems.
P.S. I will happily take care of any cockroaches, millipedes, and black widows, as well as dragons...
Wait, aren't you the same
Wait, aren't you the same person who was freaked out by the black widow living in your kitchen?!
Hey!
Tarantulas aren't poisonous, much less poisonous enough to make humans extremely ill and kill household pets! And that black widow was 1) living in my kitchen and 2) the size of a golf ball!
excuse the go between...
"CT's firm assertion"......that's hot!
Twitter Time @kdhales
Tex, that was "assertion" not
Tex, that was "assertion" not "insertion" hahaaa
Yeah, look at you!
You know I'm all hot and bothered and you throw up that avatar pic of you in all your fullness! Just wrong!
Big smooch, sweets!
Twitter Time @kdhales
Ditto on the roaches
Flies and roaches, yeah those are bad, if I SEE them, they die. They don't have to do anything, I just have to SEE them. By and large, however, if I see something like a centi/milli type creature or certain spiders/other insects that feed on other pests, I calmly catch them in a cup and carry them out of my house.
PS -- Thanks for the Twitter follow Julia. For the rest of you, @soonerterp.
If Fe is the symbol for Iron, does that make women Iron Males?
Zippo and bottle opener?
Did I miss the part about always having a Zippo lighter and bottle opener in your pocket even if you don't smoke or drink?
My favorite bottle opener just died. The memorial is being planned on FaceBook as I type.
"When you look for the bad in mankind expecting to find it, you surely will." ~ Pollyanna
No subject.
My condolences on the loss of your bottle opener. No doubt it had a good, utile life.
As to chivalry, I don't guess I think of it as "chivarly" I just think of it as polite human behaviour. I've been known to hold doors open for young men who look like they could start on OU's defence line and they look at me like I have lobsters coming out of my ears even without the fact that I have less hair on my head than the average Marine. The only reason I do it is, again, plain old politeness and nothing much more. Likewise if someone holds a door open for me or whatever, I'm all like, "thanks."
I take the same approach to dating. If my date gets all "fuck you I can open it myself," or "fuck you I can pull out my own chair" or "fuck you I know how to open a car door" business I back off. Likewise, if she is someone who wants and expects to be treated like a lady, there you go. Either way *could* have ramifcations for later events (wink wink).
Please note: There isn't much to s-terp's dating life. I work nights, for one thing; for another thing I've had three abdominal surgeries since last July, really bad ones. Dating isn't a priority right now. Even so, my idea of a date is downing beers somewhere or going to see a band at some stinking hole/otherwise music venue largely populated by hipsters more than half my age. I'm not a member of the wine/cheese crowd (nor do I care to go anywhere where I have to dress up. I hate that with a passion. My apologies to the Sartorial Butch, although she writes a great blog, and to Mr. Sexsmith, but if I can't wear a T-shirt and old skateboard shorts and old school Vans or basketball sneaks, I'm not going), nor have I ever really "grown up" to appreciate wine/cheese. I do like art galleries, though, even if there's a bit of wine/cheese involved with that scene.
'K I'm gonna STFU and let the grownups talk now.
If Fe is the symbol for Iron, does that make women Iron Males?
Okay
first I look at all the pictures, read the captions and laugh!
Then I have to come back when I have more time to read what has become a 3way novella...
tweet tweet @gracemoon