ThreeWay: The Plight of the Straight Lesbian
K.L.: The other night I was bartending and this lesbian couple came in. We started talking about lesbian bars, or lack thereof, in the city. NYC, that is.
Julia: That problem exists now everywhere.
K.L.: The louder one said she thought it was fucked up that all her straight male friends weren't allowed to come into certain girl parties with her.
Julia: Ew.
K.L.: I said, "I beg to differ." The conversation progressed angrily, as any good angry lesbians would, at which point her girlfriend said, “She and I don't really do the girl scene.” I said, “What does that mean?” She said, “We don't go to gay bars, we don't listen to lesbian musicians, we don't read lesbian authors. All of our friends are straight.”
Amy: Ooooooh. That's where she lost me.
Julia: WTF?!
Angry-lesbian-in-training.
K.L.: Which is fine if that's the case, to each her own... BUT she said it with this kind of smug pride, as if to say, “We're above all that."
Julia: That's so weird to me that anyone could have that attitude.
K.L.: And I find that most lesbians who claim to entirely remove themselves from lesbian culture do have this sense of self-loathing pride. Like, pride in being non-lesbian lesbians.
Julia: But it's such a privileged stance to even be able to take, ON TOP of the obvious self-loathing stuff... If you don't feel the need for any kind of queer community you must be very comfortably assimilated into heteronormative life and mainstream culture...
Amy: When I first heard K.L. say she wanted to punch these lesbians who said they don't identify with lez culture, I thought of it from the perspective of... someone within the queer community who doesn't identify with a lot of "lesbian" things, which I can get with. Cuz there is a lot of L culture that I dismiss. BUT… Now that I know it's more like they're more straight than lesbian, that's a whole other story. I hate that.
K.L.: I know. But we're all at fault too. Sometimes I think that because we're all so butch/ femme, we tend to think that we're not a part of the whole Melissa Etheridge/hairy armpit/same outfit-wearing culture. But let's face it, we are. It's internalized homophobia.
Julia: I dunno. I kinda grew up a Melissa Etheridge/same outfit wearing dyke, and only later came into my femme
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Comments [94]
How I ended up here?
Umm, I was invited?
Okay, let's take that question a bit further...
How many were here BEFORE OC imploded in on itself?
Perhaps, at least in my case, I'm here to participate in intelligent discussions and debates about the issues that effect some or all of us? Perhaps, at least in my case, I'm here to have such discussions and debates with not just people who see the world the way I do, but also with those who see things differently? And, at least in my case, I come to learn, and to offer the benefit of my experiences to others.
Pretty much the same reasons I was at OC.
And, while I cannot speak for others here on your question, I do suspect I'm not alone, nor the only one who was invited.
May i ask. are you
May i ask.
are you concidering yourself relate to american culture?
-Do not follow me, I'M LOST-
Sort of, and not really
Being mixed race and a military brat, I use to think I was a part of various cultures, given my history. Now, I don't know where I fit in anymore.
being mixed race myself
growing up in very dichotomous cultures... I have no idea what you are construing from my comment.
tweet tweet @gracemoon
Comments, in general, not necessarily yours
Your comments cleared a few things up for me, as to what consitutes culture from your perception.
Where I have a problem is with the perceptions (and that has been an often used word by me in this thread) that I have, not just of the original discussion, but some of the comments as well.
As someone who gets hit with comments like "You're not really a [insert demographic here]" regularly since early childhood (it just happened again about an hour ago), I guess I'm just worn out by it all. I really do feel that most of the time, especially lately, like I just don't fit in anywhere because I fail to measure up to any expectations, save for those of my employer (and by proxy, law enforcement). It's like, since I don't fit in anywhere, I seem to have my own culture, one unique to me, and quite lonely. I do feel good about myself as a human being, I'm just stuck in a phase where I do not know where I belong in the grand scheme of things, and I'm feeling increasingly isolated.
I like my perception of what lesbian culture is, divirse, fluid, evolving, each woman bringing with them aspects of their own cultural backgrounds apart from lesbian culture. It's exciting to watch and, on those rare occasions I'm allowed, to interact and learn from such an ever changing population, and bring to them my perceptions and experiences. It's one of the biggest reasons I like coming here, frustrations and all. There is no way I can learn it all, and not all aspects are particularly appealing to me.
So, when I see words or phrases like "assimilationist," "self loathing," and "low self-esteem," or people saying that we must do this or think that, well, it sets of more than a few alarms for me. I've heard or read those words before, more times than I care to. That's what I got from the overall tenor of the discussion and subsequent comments (which I read more than once) before chiming in with my perceptions of the overall discussion and the direction it was going.
Does that help explain things any? Like I said before, this has been a particularly informative discussion, albeit one that hits a particularly sensitive spot for me, and at a particularly bad time in my life. But I'm still hanging in there, trying to learn and understand.
CMW
I'm with you.
For us that is clearly true,
For us that is clearly true, and we are infinitely thankful for this community. I just don't think it is necessarily true for all queer individuals at every life stages. We all pass through periods where our lives focus more and less acutely on varying aspects. It is part of the natural cycle of growth and learning.
Not to egg you on, but I do love nuts. Especially the salted ones. Hey, there's a good open thread question: What do nut do you most resemble?
oh throwing salt on my wounds are you?
I think its absolutely necessary for all lgbts to know their community and culture at all times, cuz while they might skate by in their own life someone else is taking it on the chin.
for me nuts most resemble small animal brains.
tweet tweet @gracemoon
Grace - I think you've hit
Grace - I think you've hit the nail on the head here. I think in the past I've been "guilty" of not really understanding or relating to the whole concept of the lgbt community and culture but when I hit the bureaucratic wall relating to having a non-UK national same sex partner, I soon wised up and heard of some very humbling experiences relating to what members of the lgbt community in the same situation had to go through before me. As you alluded to in another comment, when the shit comes down we always rely on members of our own community to see us through.
I do think I need to remind myself of this sometimes - I do live a very mainstream life in lots of ways and that is through a combination of necessity, choice and circumstance - but when all is said and done I am a proud member of a minority group and all that comes with that.
Hope this makes sense and a big thanks to you for what you do here, from little ol' me over in little ol' England xx
Yes
I like it when you get all salty. It reminds me of my almighty angry phases. Which honestly, I sometimes miss.
That is, when I'm not just absolutely thankful to have gotten through.
Maybe it just lost something in the translation
Maybe this is just one of those conversations that doesn't work as well without body language, voice tone, and the ability to clarify in real time.
I will say that when I read it I found the angry tone disturbing. When I reread it I realized that the "angry lesbian" angle was there right off the bat. I will admit, that phrase tends to rankle me, so that is probably where my hairs started to raise. In a personal conversation, I would have stayed more open and engaged. But as I read the angry, seemingly judgmental words that followed, the feeling grew.
In the end, I hesitated to trust the initial evaluation of the person who met these individuals. Had her willingness to be the "angry lesbian" kept her from asking non-confrontational clarifying questions? Had she too soon leaped to the conclusion that these individuals were self-loathing? Would a more open attitude on her part have led their responses in a different direction?
I don't profess to know. No one in the room for the discussion asked the questions that I would have asked, perhaps because they had all of the nonverbals that we do not have here. I don't know if the actual tone was a bantering diss of the self-loather met at the bar, or an angry judgmental response to the self-loather met at the bar. But really, I don't take the whole self-loather angle as a given.
I have met people who have always been comfortable in their own sexuality and I truly believe never stopped to question or expected anyone to care. As a group, they tend to be less interested in a segregated community; less in need of its support. I know one such queer identified woman who has been fortunate enough not to be disillusioned, yet. She doesn't hang with me because I am queer. What we share is a love of tactile art. We don't discuss queer politics. I knew her for three years before I met her long distance girlfriend. I always knew she was a cool and open individual, but until that day didn't know she was queer. Everyone at her work knew because GF had come to the company holiday party first year in. I didn't know because she just happens to be queer. And yes, if you asked her about lesbian bars, she would probably tell you that she found them silly and limiting, but hey, if it works for you, enjoy it.
So, maybe this angry lesbian at the bar is a repressed, self-loathing lesbian. Or maybe one attitude begot another.
Um, okay...
When I first saw the title of this discussion, I thought it was in relation to an article I read in The Lesbian News several months back, regarding straight women who pretend to be lesbians in order to get actual lesbians to support them (on a number of levels) until the mythical Mr. Right comes along, or more often until Mr. Wrong gets out on bail or parole.
Imagine my surprise when it turned out to be a fairly intolerant discussion about lesbians who fail to conform to someone's perception of lesbian culture. I found it fairly similar to some of the discussions I had with others when writing my article about the inherent intolerance within the Women Born Women Only movement, which seeks to exclude transgender and intersex women from events, education, health care, and crisis services for women.
I don't know about anyone else, but to me being lesbian is about who I am attracted to and who I love. That society has chosen to place a label on that matters not one bit to me. Who a person loves does not automatically imply that a person must limit who their friends are, the things they do, or the things they can believe in.
We are a population that comes from a wide variety of cultures, with an even wider set of beliefs. Some of us choose to be a part of the dominant culture, others to be apart from it, and the rest somewhere within that spectrum.
Before we can expect others to stop criticizing us for who and what we are and the choices we make that have no effect on them, perhaps we should first work on not doing it to ourselves?
Maybe then we can call ourselves a community, and take pride in our wonderful diversity, and learn from it.
Well...
I agree with much of what you say except I don't think this is a discussion about 'lesbians who fail to conform to someone's perception of lesbian culture.' It's about two lesbians who want to do a superior dance because they conform to someone's perception of straight culture. If they were saying something like 'I just don't relate to a lot of aspects of gay/queer culture and feel more comfortable in the straight world' that's one thing. But to be dismissive of one and hold the other up as superior is obnoxious--I won't go as far as to say 'self-loathing,' but I would definitely say insecure. And not very evolved.
Understood
I had to reread the story a couple of times before I commented on it. The dismissiveness and superiority were assumed based on highly subjective perceptions early on in the story, followed by a subtle form of dismissiveness and superiority over those women.
I go to one gay bar in SoCal, because my best friend works there, and only on the nights she works. It's not that I'm anti-gay bar, but I'm just at a stage in my life where I don't like the whole bar scene, or anyplace that's crowded. The only lesbian musician I like is Melissa Etheridge, not because she's gay, but because she's a damned good artist. I don't watch Ellen (and never got into her sitcom), not because I want to separate from gay themes, but because I'm not into her brand of humor, nor into talk shows. I don't do women's events not because I'm against women, but because I'm not allowed.
For this, I am often called an assimilist (even my fingers hate typing that word).
We do not know the actual reasons behind the decisions the two women under discussion made, or how they feel about them, we only have one person's perceptions of them. Maybe she's right (bartenders are good at reading people). But, having been the target of such assumptions, I know that those perceptions could be wrong as well. Perhaps they are just proud of the choices they've made, or maybe they didn't have a choice to begin with, and are just trying to make the best of the life they have.
It's all subjective, but it does make for an interesting discussion.
Exactly, Mysty. Thanks for
Exactly, Mysty. Thanks for your comment.
I'm having a hard time understanding where some folks are reading the same kind of thing into this blog, that we're either saying A) gay people shouldn't associate with straight people, or B) "lesbians who fail to conform to someone's perception of lesbian culture" ought to be punished. We're not trying to police what is acceptable as lesbian culture. We're questioning and holding accountable lesbians who take an elitist brand of pride in having nothing to do with lesbian culture.
It should be noted that by definition, every single person who reads this website, whether they comment and/or actively participate or not, is taking part in lesbian/dyke/queer female culture.
Perceptions can be problematic
I agree that someone feeling superior to others simply because they make different choices is an issue. What I got from the story was that this applied (through an assumption) not just to the women under discussion, but to those having the discussion as well.
I've actually been the subject of similar discussions, such as how I'm not a "real woman," how I'm not a "real lesbian," etc. I've actually had someone tell me I can't be a real lesbian because I can't shoot pool worth a damn (with 20/525 vision, I'm lucky to find the cue), and because I don't like KD Lang's music (I'm not a huge fan of that style of music). I've even been called an assimilist, despite my activism and the fact I've been "out" for decades (go figure). All of this, of course, ignores my past and what I've been through during my journey through life to be the person I am.
This, of course, colors my perceptions of what I read in the above story. Did those two women feel somehow superior? We don't really know that, because in the story we are told that is assumed. What bothers me is my perception that the participants in the discussion somehow felt superior to the women under discussion, which, if the case, would be equally wrong.
I suspect more than a few others here have been through something similar, which accounts for the perceptions on the perceptions in this story.
True.
Yes, I think we're all either denouncing or defending our own personal straw man in this debate. If the actual couple we're talking about read this convo, they'd probably cower and be all, "we were just kidding?"
But I noticed a similar criticism in the comments section of The Root 100's most influential african-americans of the year. Staceyann and a professor of mine were both nominated, and one of the commenters called the nominations "scary and assimilationist" to white/dominant culture. Now, did that commenter really know all 100 people were assimilationist? On what grounds did he make that very large assumption? The assimilation issue is worthy of debate, but it's hard to find real-world examples of people who are 100%, gung-ho, self-hating assimilationists - and those people deserve my pity more than my disdain. When you get down to it, the debate becomes almost strictly theoretical. And then withers away like whispers in the wind...like this response...
Snobs are snobs
Yup, straight or gay or anything in between, snobs are snobs. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts these two turn up their noses at plenty of other things.
Interesting that they were sharing this with Katie--I assume they know she's a queer-identified lesbian. Why the need to share this particular info with her? Maybe a) their straight friends just wouldn't be interested or b) they're just those perverse types that would walk into a Hanukkah celebration dragging a Christmas tree and saying 'well we're Jewish but menorahs just can't hold a candle (ha!) to a tree.'
Matter of snob, this have
Matter of snob, this have nothing to do with the topic but when i was in Washington, i was speaking to someone and a guy turn at me and ask in french: were are you from? so i replied i'm born in france but i live in quebec. Then he said: i thought i recognize french accent, I'm from france but i live in NYC. then he turn back to his friend and start to speak with a NYC accent that even NYcers haven't that strong.So i tryed to keep going the conversation but he barely look at me. WTF this guy disrupt me from a previous conversation to tel me that i have a french accent and HE live in NYC.
the pain is to know that that jerk go around giving bad publicity about French peoples.
-Do not follow me, I'M LOST-
Just imagine if you were American
Don't despair Pepe--for every French person who gives France a bad reputation there's at least 100 Americans doing the same to us.
p.s. I second Tae's reply
Not to worry, little skunk
You more than even things out.
No time to process today
I just started reading this conversation and it would take me forever to deconstruct those two women's attitudes about the straight and gay worlds, so I'll just let y'all process it out for me, as all good lesbians tend to do.
Still searching for the right brainy quote.
I'm with ya, Kelly.
Since the couple in question was definitely an extreme example of non-lesbian lesbians, you sort of have to consider the opposite - the "I don't talk to straight people" lesbians are, in my experience, very petty. We've all seen that person - the chick who ignores the one harmless straight guy at the dyke party. It's kinda sad.
Thanks!
It's not HIS fault he's a straight dude! Give him props for having the courage to be harmless in that setting. See what you can glean of his life and where there might be connection. That's my approach.
Nothing's a bigger turn-off to me than an angry, separatist lesbian. I'd way rather hang with a harmless breeder.
Won't you be my neighbor? @theKELword
As a totally bliever in Dyke Culture
I agree that these Str8 assimilationist gays are self-loathing.
and the difference between queers who dismiss straight culture; all the power to us, because in reality we CAN'T get away from it. So to deconstruct it is monumentally more difficult than LAZY IGNORANT SELF-HATING Queers who pretend to only exist in a Straight world.
Just as soon as those two broads Lieds served at her bar break up, both of them will come crawling back to the lesbian world.... in utter loneliness and isolation.
tweet tweet @gracemoon
catch phrases
Self-loathing...
Assimilationist...
Heteronormative...
For the love of Shane, can't we all just live and let live? Why do we insist upon judging everyone and their lives and putting them down for being where they are? How are we setting an example of inclusiveness by that?
I'm not lazy, ignorant, or self-hating and I have no problem negotiating a world that is primarily straight.
Won't you be my neighbor? @theKELword
Anything for the love of Shane
Kelly, I would do just about anything for the love of Shane. Well, Kate actually.
Agreed
Labels tend to do more harm than good, as does making assumptions about others and then judging them based upon those assumptions.
Excuse the jump in....
it is the straight world that will ulimately decide our legal fate....by voting.
Twitter Time @kdhales
Ahem!
I'm so getting myself in trouble, but here I go...
My life has unfolded in such a way that I have far more straight friends than gay ones. I like having the variety. To be exclusive to one or the other doesn't feel healthy to me. Certainly limited.
And we all know I'm one of those gays who decry gay pride parades as showing the worst of our culture. That's how I feel and I won't apologize for it. Although I do appreciate the depiction of it in your piece here as simply celebratory. I just see it differently is all.
But what of gays who hang exclusively with gays, who dismiss the non-queer world entirely? That's just as wrong as the women KL encountered.
Won't you be my neighbor? @theKELword
I agree.....
more than ever, I agree. I'll discuss this further after the 3rd...let's have another blog on this one - looks like we can have some healthy bantering.
Twitter Time @kdhales
BS
Non gay lesbian—thanks, but no thanks. I agree with the self-loathing angle. Reminds of women who deride other women and say things like they'd rather work for a man than a woman. Complete bullshit.
"When you look for the bad in mankind expecting to find it, you surely will." ~ Pollyanna
Why?
Why do people always jump to self-loathing and low self-worth? I have neither and (as I wrote above) I have a plurality of straight friends. Why can't it just be freedom of choice?
Won't you be my neighbor? @theKELword
Because...
... as I've just learned, it's about categorizing, labelling, segregating, and rejecting. I see it all the time, and now I can honestly say I see it in every culture. It's human nature, I guess.
The issue
"Why can't it just be freedom of choice?" The issue isn't queers choosing straight friends. The issue is queers who decide that there is something inherently wrong with being queer and everything associated with it.
"When you look for the bad in mankind expecting to find it, you surely will." ~ Pollyanna
Kel, I don't think any of us,
Kel, I don't think any of us, Rusty included, are saying that queers should only have queer friends. I totally agree that surrounding yourself exclusively with gay folks isn't all that healthy either. But I think you're kind of confusing the point we're making, which is that it is A) weird, B) bewildering, and C) even a bit suspicious for a queer person to state that they don't feel a need for any sort of connection with other queers outside of their sex life and/or relationships.
We can agree to disagree as to what consistutes "the worst" parts of gay culture, but I don't think it's fair to characterize this blog as promoting the idea that having straight friends is a bad thing. It's the smugness about abstaining from lesbian culture that K.L. described in one of the women she was talking to that I personally took such issue with. I've come across a few lesbian-identified women who share that attitude over the years, and I find it a reprehensible one. It inherently mocks and makes light of not only the sometimes stark realities of queer life in our culture, but how empowering and life-affirming an experience it can be to form strong connections with other queers.
I guess the bottom line, for me, is that I downright feel sorry for queers who, for whatever reason, either willfully deny themselves that connection or simply fail to recognize its value.
It's not that some of us don't feel the need
It's that some of us feel rejected, because we don't measure up in one or more ways to the expectations of the majority. Eventually, after enough rejection, we begin to reject as well. Some will choose to reject themselves to conform to the expectations of others, some will reject others and isolate themselves.
We all have different ways of dealing with rejection, or the potential for rejection. Mine is, typically, to withdraw, though at times I have found it necessary to take the opposite tack, and either stand my ground or push forward (which ever can be accomplished most effectively).
But, after years of rejection, of being told one doesn't measure up, people tend to stop trying to "fit in," and just go to where they won't face rejection, and then separate themselves from those who always reject them, in every way possible.
I do not know if I am articulating this in a way that is easily understood, if at all. I can say this has been a very interesting line of discussion, one that was both informative and disturbing.
It's given me a lot to think about, especially with regards to how and where I fit in.
Oh!
And the automatic jump to self-loathing part... I never understand that.
Won't you be my neighbor? @theKELword
Well, then what's your
Well, then what's your opposing theory if not queer self-loathing? We tried to look at it from the POV of the couple in question and come up with another idea in our chat, to no avail.
Try this POV
Pre-emptive rejection.
I think you know what I'm talking about, because if I remember correctly, you live in SoCal. I know I see it all the time in the Inland Empire, and not just directed at me by any means.
People get tired of rejection, and the "culture" here is more than a bit clique-ish, so there's more than enough rejection to go around. Some who get tired of others rejecting them may act pre-emptively and act to reject others before they themselves can be rejected.
I also know more than a few lesbian couples who do not fit the definition of lesbian culture mentioned elsewhere in this thread. If anything, they are heteronormative. They're quite happy with that, so I'm happy for them. Granted, they do not go into an LGBT bar and boast about their choice to piss off the bartender who is making their drinks, but they aren't a part of what is defined here as lesbian culture in any way that I can determine. Knowing them as I do, however, if asked they will most certainly discuss their choices, proudly and without a hint of shame.
I need not understand all of the choices people make to respect them, so long as those choices do not harm themselves or others.
Here's a tried-and-true opposing theory...
Maybe the drama of the dyke world was a little too much for them? Hell, plenty of my single dyke friends have defected from regular queer outings because there were too many exes-per-square-foot.
It's not that they've magically started hating themselves; they probably started to hate how a small group of women who sleep with each other act...after they've all slept with each other. In that sense, there is a subtle difference between defecting from Dyke Culture and defecting from dykes.
Sometime, peoples who pretend
Sometime, peoples who pretend to be tired of dramas are the same who pave the way to it in the first place. And those who are tired of having to many ex in the way should questioning themselves about the urge of jumping from a girlfriend to another.
Thats funny because i have that discussion with a friend i haven't seen for long time. The same thing about drama and ex. i reminded her a couples of things. I mean, its too easy to come over, messing every where and go away saying its too dirty. Beside, straight world isn't that pure either.
-Do not follow me, I'M LOST-
I dunno.
Maybe they just don't relate. It's not their experience.
I recently heard about a lez couple who are born-again Christians. That's their world. That's where they are comfortable. Just because they choose that because it's what they know and love... I don't see how that automatically gives them low self-worth.
Won't you be my neighbor? @theKELword
More importantly...
Actually the second part of my first comment was the more important one: What about queers who dismiss non-queer life in the same way these women supposedly dismiss lezzie culture?
I'm not feeling like picking a fight, but we have a VP contributor who once said, basically, that if it ain't queer, she wishes it didn' exist or at least didn't enter her sphere of consciousness. That's so limited and limiting to me. Without heteros, we wouldn't have electricity and the Internet, among many other things!
Won't you be my neighbor? @theKELword