No Such Thing as Evil, Only Ignorance
“Evil does exist in the world…” Obama proclaimed in his Nobel acceptance speech, as justification for our “Just” war. Look, I’m no pacifist, and I’m not even sure if I’m against troops in Afghanistan, but if you accept the dichotomy of good and evil — I’m right, you’re wrong — it seems to me the arrogance of righteousness, often leads to evil.
There is a fundamental problem to me with the Judeo-Christian good v. evil thing. The two are forever locked in conflict. It’s a no win situation. Some self-righteous jackass will always believe they are righter than some other self-righteous jackass. Then, Ka-Boom Pow, you get an armed conflict, hijackers, military coups, and a whole host of other problems.
In his autobiography, B.K.S. Iyengar — the father of modern hatha yoga, writes, “in western thought intelligence is ascribed to evil. The devil is a clever character possessing consciousness separate and antithetical to God. The Devil in yoga is not intelligent. He is ignorant. In fact he is ignorance itself.”
The word Zen, is the Japanese translation of the Chinese word Chan, which is a translation of the Sanskrit word Dhyana, which means mediation. Its believed that the inward turning gaze of consciousness reveals the light of true knowledge, and that enlightenment is God.
Ignorance, as Iyengar states, “is ‘nescience’ the state of not knowing. What don’t we know when we are ignorant? You don’t know what is real and what is not real, what is enduring and what is perishable, who you are and who you are not. You think the artifacts of your living room are more real than the unity of our humanity.”
If westerners can manage to understand this concept that evil is not some impenetrable Devil, but in fact, mere stupidity. Then overcoming evil becomes an achievable exercise, and not a “holy” war.
That is not to say there aren’t, at times, the necessity for the use of force.
In the Zen tradition the master walks with a big stick, and often does not speak at all. The master’s stick is an extension of the enlightened Master. When the dutiful Zen students sit for meditation, the master is known to give the unsuspecting student a good whack on the head. The blow itself carries the potential of sudden enlightenment.
The 20th C. Zen master Nantembo was named after his stick made from the Nanten tree, which he was known to have used a lot.
In the practice of hatha yoga, ignorance is routed out by arduous, and often painful practice. The mastery of the pose is stillness and ease.
Mediation itself is no cake walk either. For anyone who has ever tried, it’s an almost impossible task, the mind races, the knees hurt, the mind wonders, the back aches... How can such a simple method; sit with your eyes shut for a period of time, be so excruciating?
Ironically Mahatma Gandhi, the father of non-violent civil disobedience, used the Bhagavad Gita as his scriptural foundation. The Gita is one of the main writings of Hinduism. It comes out of a larger book called the Mahabharata, a complicated story about a war. The Gita is the conversation between the two main characters, Lord Krishna and Arjuna, as to why the war needed to be fought.
I do not believe there is a fundamental problem with Christianity, but I do believe the dogma of right and wrong has hijacked the religion for the purpose of consolidating power. Evil things can be born out of good people when ignorance clouds understanding.
It makes perfect sense then that religions around the world use the metaphor of light to mark divine occasions. The illumination of knowledge dispels darkness. The lights on the Menorah marking the dedication of the Temple. The light of the Star of Bethlehem marking the birth of Christ…
I really have no problem with a good whack up side the head, so long as the Truth is behind it.
Comments [62]
Ok, I'm off to the gym, but
Ok, I'm off to the gym, but I'll be back tomorrow to continue getting my ass chapped! LOL
The only enlightenment
The only enlightenment brought by violence is hatred.
Yeah, I never heard of this
Yeah, I never heard of this stick method of teaching enlightenment before and certainly wouldn't go in for that if I was studying under a zen master. It seems rather un-zen like. Then again, what do I know? If I were to subscribe to any particular philosophy it would be Taoism.
The way
The way i conceive Philosophy is more like a toolbox rather than a readymade trail. I'm not sure there's a "one fit for all" way. I have poor knowledge on Taoism or zen thing, perhaps i miss something
-Do not follow me, I'M LOST-
I think you're right on the
I think you're right on the money, Yonks. You can read Lao Tsu's "Tao Te Ching" very quickly since it's a tiny book. I actually have a pocket sized edition.
Taeism?
hah
what is the sound of one tae happening?
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Why?
Are the neighbors complaining again?
Have you been to the UK
Have you been to the UK recently?
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/091215/world/britain_court_sex_offbeat
My neighbors
just join in.
Hard to say exactly, but it'd
Hard to say exactly, but it'd have to be a bit whorey, wouldn't it?
xo
Ah Grasshopper,
Your intuition grows.
"I do not believe there is a
"I do not believe there is a fundamental problem with Christianity, but I do believe the dogma of right and wrong has hijacked the religion for the purpose of consolidating power."
Ain't that the fuckin truth!
"In the Zen tradition the master walks with a big stick, and often does not speak at all. The master’s stick is an extension of the enlightened Master. When the dutiful Zen students sit for meditation, the master is known to give the unsuspecting student a good whack on the head. The blow itself carries the potential of sudden enlightenment."
In the American tradition, we have the Second Amendment, which says that lawmakers can't infringe upon each person's right to walk with her own big stick, which is an extension of the enlightened Master. We are all our own Zen Masters, and that we have a right to defend ourselves against anyone who claims to be hitting us for enlightenment.
And that painting of the stick is badass!
Antithetical
Sorry, but the Second Amendment is about as far as you can get from Zen mastery. If you'll note, the tradition says only 'Zen Masters' carry big sticks. The average Joe Schmo hasn't reached the necessary enlightenment to be trusted with any sort of 'stick'--big or small.
The "Zen mastery" way of
The "Zen mastery" way of thinking about this concept (self-defense, carrying sticks, etc) sure is different the Second Amendment, and here's how:
What I'll call the Zen mastery way says that certain people are enlightened, and therefore are fit to carry sticks. The corollary to this is that certain other people aren't fit to carry sticks. So there's some kind of decision-making process where certain people are considered enlightened, and others aren't. This means that there's a definition of enlightened, and ostensibly, someone somewhere gets to decide who is enlightened and who isn't.
The Second Amendment way of thinking open sources this decision-making process, and further acknowledges that the best person to make important decisions about your life (like whether or not you are fit to carry a stick) is you. Leaving decisions in the hands of a few has a name: oppression. If you regard the average person with suspicion and contempt, and are convinced that certain people are just inherently more fit to make life's meaningful decisions, the Second Amendment approach would be incomprehensible to you. Do you view yourself as a competent person, or should the major responsibilities is your life be left to the "experts?" I do not understand why people want to live in a world where only the police and military can arm themselves, or why they don't see self-defense as a human right.
And my "you" in this comment doesn't mean you specifically mysticsmb; it's a general "you."
There is no corollary between
There is no corollary between a zen master's stick and government oppression. A student of a zen master places himself (or herself) in the master's tutelage willingly and aceepts that the master's method will lead him/her to enlightenment. If that person does not accept the master's methodology he/she need only leave his tutelage. Therefore, the student is subjecting himself to being hit with said stick if the usage of the stick is in fact part of that master's reaching methods. As I said. No corollary. Or as Spock would say- your argument lacks logic.
That's a very good point. In
That's a very good point. In your conception of things, would the Zen master still want to be the teacher if the relationship between the student and the master was different and the student could carry a stick too (assuming both parties entered into the teacher/student arrangement willingly and could still leave at any time)?
Also, do you think that citizens of an oppressive government should have the right to carry weapons (since they ostensibly can't "leave" the "relationship" when they want to)?
True that!
True that!
Guess what? I don't need a
Guess what? I don't need a silly stick to feel empowered! I can probably do more to defend myself without a gun than most can with one. I don't regard the average person with suspicion or contempt, but I do regard those who are so fearful of their fellow man that they need to carry a gun with suspicion and pity. Have a gander at Michael Moore's brilliant historical summary in Bowling for Columbine about how this country has been fueled by fear since its inception--and the role guns have played in that.
I'm happy to have been born in THIS century, despite all its ills, because I still think its a vast improvement over the Wild West...
I don't feel empowered
I don't feel empowered because I have a "silly stick." It's the opposite. I have a "silly stick" because I feel that self-defense is one of my human rights, and that as a self-actualized, empowered person I must take personal responsibility for my own safety.
I used to feel the way you do, but I eventually called into question everthing I knew about the subject, and all my thinking surrounding it. I came to a different understanding. It doesn't mean I'm right and you're wrong. I'm doing what I know is right for me, and others don't have the right to make those decisions for me.
I'm not fearful of my fellow citizens: I trust them to own guns, even large-capacity, "military-style" ones (I'll get into that as much or as little as you want me to, or explain my thinking there to whatever degree you are interested). I show what I think by supporting their right to arm themselves. A gun is a tool that people can use to defend themselves and acquire food, and I assume that my fellow citizens are just as competent to use the tool as I am. And I stand by this assertion even when I know some people will use guns to do evil, because those of us who aren't criminals should have the means to defend ourselves.
I have seen "Bowling for Columbine" and feel that it contributes to the over-hyped, propaganda-based fear people have surrounding guns. That movie is part of what made me conclude that the terms "gun" and "violence" are related in much the same way that the terms "schooling" and "education" are related in our society. They are considered synonyms in this very surface, cursory way, but they actually have a much more complex relationship to each other, and are often antithetical.
I must have seen the Director's Cut
I got something very different out of Moore's documentary. I didn't see it as a pro- or anti-gun movie, but one that addressed the violent culture in the US, and how that is promoted, oftentimes fatally, through mass media, religious and political extremism, etc. Moore himself is a gun owner. He also spent a great deal of time on the fact that many Canadian citizens have guns, and yet nowhere near the violence we have in this country, and this was a huge step in separating out the issues of gun control v. institutionalized societal violence.
silly stupid stick
Your "silly stick" reference reminded me of Ally McBeal and nicknaming the penis as to "the stupid stick." The terms are Interchangeable, I'd say.
We are star stuff. We are the universe made manifest trying to figure itself out. ~ Delenn
Yes, to follow that line of
Yes, to follow that line of thinking, every country should have nuclear weapons and we'd all be SO much safer!
I've considered the merits of
I've considered the merits of open-sourcing nuclear weapon ownership too.
Yes, Rusty, the double
Yes, Rusty, the double entendre has been intended all along--going back to my initial comment that Grace got a hoot out of!
I'm not convinced you really
I'm not convinced you really think I subscribe to the idea that I derive some kind of power from a phallic symbol.
That's all well and good...
In theory, yes, the Zen Masters are the only ones allowed to carry the big stick.
In practice, however, the ones with the big sticks are the master.
Do you understand the difference?
I do
Exactly my fear--somebody gets himself a stick and starts thinking he IS a master, rather than thinking LIKE a master.
Exactly
I figured you would get what I was trying to say, I just wasn't sure if I worded it right. Sometimes my thought processes get a bit jumbled, and I just wanted to make sure I got the idea across right.
Well put, Mystic!
Well put, Mystic!
I'm sure Mystic does
I'm sure Mystic does understand the difference between western and eastern thought and practices. It seemed to me that Grace was attempting to present a new perspective but a lot of folks aren't ready to hear it. Sounds to me like we're trapped in western tradition.
Aren't ready to hear it?
Aren't ready to hear it? We're listening to it and discussing it. We just don't think the same thing about it as you, that's all.
Oh, and I don't mean to say "we" and speak for others, or assume that it was me you were refering to, but I couldn't come up with another way to word it. Anyway, I hope to hear more.
I didn't think we were just
I didn't think we were just disagreeing. I think you completely misunderstand what I'm saying. Lots of folks who have been raised in a Judeo-Christian society have a difficult time understanding eastern religions & philosophies. Which is odd considering that Christ himself clearly spent time in the east and learned a lot while there and his teachings (not the rewritten bible crap we've all been fed) clearly reflect an eastern bent.
But I'm not
But I'm not misunderstanding.
But ok, let's try again.
Can you clarify what it is you think I'm misunderstanding?
No. I've tired of this.
No. I've tired of this.
2x post
2x post
We are star stuff. We are the universe made manifest trying to figure itself out. ~ Delenn
amuck, amuck, amuck
Sounds to me like we're trapped in western tradition.
No kidding, Robin. And unfortunately, we're there with the Joe Schmos who are run amuck and joining militias.
We are star stuff. We are the universe made manifest trying to figure itself out. ~ Delenn
I noticed you did the same
I noticed you did the same thing a while back when the same topic came up, and I don't accept it. I'm glad to debate if you engage with a tone of respect. No offense meant to you, and I don't have any problem against you or hostile feeling toward you. Let's keep it civil.
Pass
This is not a debate I care to take part in because to be 100% honest I have no respect for a mindset that believes we arm everyone and who ever has the most firepower is "right."
We are star stuff. We are the universe made manifest trying to figure itself out. ~ Delenn
I don't think that.
I don't think that.
Sometimes my thoughts require further clarification...
... hence why I asked if what I posted was understood.
What I was pointing out is the dichotomy between the ideal and the reality. Speaking for myself, I am always ready to hear the ideas and ideals such as what Grace and others speak of. I also live in the real world, where such concepts are rarely apparent or accepted by those who claim or seek to be our masters.
To my way of thinking, any master who feels the need to strike others with a stick is no master at all, regardless of the motive. Those who would be master, who need to use force to establish and enforce their mastery over others, are the reason the rest feel the need to carry their own sticks, primarily to protect themselves.
But western tradition have
But western tradition have the same perspective via Socrates, Rousseau, Nietszche.
But that putting aside, i think sometime ignorance is a root and sometime a good excuse.
-Do not follow me, I'M LOST-
actually
I do not believe the western and eastern philosophy approaches the notion of being the same way at all.
Its the difference between "I think therefore I am" and achieving "No mind" is pretty radically different.
hence this unending discussion here
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OK just to make myself clear,
OK just to make myself clear, because i realize that i'm not, first i totally agree with you for Obama's comment about the evil. A president shouldn't talk that way. I also agree with you for the good/evil dichotomy.
But i think this over simplified thinking do not represent the whole western point of view.
And i think putting back to back philosophy are counterproductive
-Do not follow me, I'M LOST-
Actually...
... a comparison of various different philosophies can be very instructive. It not only can alter one's perceptions about their own thinking, but educates one in the views and thoughts of another.
One of the biggest mistakes we make here in the west is the failure to see the world through the eyes of another. It's a sort of myopic tunnel-vision, if you will, coupled with an "Us v. Them" mentality. We are simply unwilling to understand the thinking behind what others do, and assume such thinking is identical to our own, and the consequences of such thinking is often tragic.
But, to see through the eyes of another, one must be willing to strip away their own biases and assumptions first, and start with a Tabula Rasa (clean slate, or clear mind), which is difficult at best in any culture, let alone one such as seen in the US.
Oh I'm sorry, in french back
Oh I'm sorry, in french back to back mean against each other, of course comparison will be great.
But i think to see through the eyes of an other is easy to say. damn! i already have hard time to open my own eyes. Usually i stop by thinking that the person must have a good reason to think that way.
-Do not follow me, I'M LOST-
Another President's contemplation of war
I thought you may be interest in Abraham Lincoln's second inaugural speech, during the midst of the Civil War, which contained a theological meditation on man, God and war and peace. It is one of the most remarkable speeches by a President in the history of this country.
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/abrahamlincolnsecondinauguralad...
Las Caderas No Mienten ~ Shakira
right... All i have to add is,
Om Mani Padma Hum
tweet me tweeps @gracemoon
"hence this unending
"hence this unending discussion here"
Why do you even bother discussing, aren't you supposed to just suht up and meditate?
My first intervention was too short, i wasn't talking about the approach at large, i was talking about the mistake or ignorance for the origin of bad behavior. And Descartes quote came after a reflection on his ignorance, what is the only thing that i'm sure about? And i think that he said somewhere that deep reflection about metaphysic must be performed only couples of time per year, the rest of the time, you must release your mind.
-Do not follow me, I'M LOST-
"But that putting aside, i
"But that putting aside, i think sometime ignorance is a root and sometime a good excuse."
Right you are!