I don't know about you, but I really don't see what's so vague about the so-called torture memos and why people aren't in jail yet. The historic precedence has been set for waterboarding prosecutions and Dick Cheney boasts that they waterboarded prisoners. When did one plus one stop equaling jail time?
In 1947, the United States prosecuted and imprisoned Japanese officer Yukio Asano for war crimes subsequent to his waterboarding of a U.S. civilian. Senator Teddy Kennedy has reminded his colleagues in a 2006 debate what happened back then: "Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor. We punished people with 15 years of hard labor when waterboarding was used against Americans in World War II.”

When American soldiers utilized the practice against Vietnamese captives in 1968, the Washington Post ran a front-page photo and deemed it a “fairly common” practice. After the story broke, an Army investigation ensued, though the use of this suspect technique did not abate. Navy SEALs and Army Special Forces used in in training exercises – that whole SERE thing we keep hearing about – to toughen up our soldiers so that they are ready for what the savages might do.
Fast forward to 1983. President Ronald Reagan... you may have heard of him... had his Department of Justice prosecute Texas sheriff James Parker and three of his deputies for the waterboarding they participated in. The sheriff got 10 years in the pokey, with the deputies serving four each.
Despite their existence, these cases were not cited as precedence by any of the torture memo authors as they sought to give the Bush Administration legal cover for the enhanced interrogation methods already underway. Human rights attorney Scott Horton said, “To take one example, there was a court-martial addressing the practice of waterboarding from 1903, a state court case from the '20s, a series of prosecutions at the [post-World War II] Tokyo Tribunal (in many of which the death penalty was sought) and another court-martial in 1968. These precedents could have been revealed in just a few minutes of computerized research using the right search engines. It's hard to imagine that (John) Yoo and (Jay) Bybee didn't know them. So why are none of these precedents mentioned? Obviously because each of them contradicts the memo's conclusions and would have to be distinguished away. Professional rules would have required that these precedents be cited, failing to do so reflects incompetent analysis.”
In fact, the 1987 Convention Against Torture deems it criminal for any “person acting under the color of law” to “inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control.”
It all seems so clear. Again I ask, why aren't people in jail yet? The Office of Professional Responsibility thinks the Bybee-Yoo crew should perhaps be disbarred for their lapses in judgment, but that's really about it. Of course, Attorney General Eric Holder is where the buck will stop and he has yet to render his opinion. So there's still a teeny tiny glimmer of hope.
Rachel Maddow and Newsweek's Michael Isikoff broke it all down last night:
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Comments [50]
Ok let me answer my own
Ok let me answer my own question if torturing one terrorist who don't give a fuck about Americans and he know there was a plot to kill 3000 Americans and he was in on it.I would TORTURE THE HELL OUT OF THAT FUCK FACE to stop Americans from being killed
Thank you to our soldiers for all you do to keep me safe with Memorial day coming up and to all the family 's that lost loved ones and to all the 911 family my heart has always went out to you.
PS,FUCK the bleeding heart liberals that love the terrorist more then our soldiers and Americans.I am done with this thread now.
Deedee, perhaps if you spent
Deedee, perhaps if you spent more time LISTENING than asking the same question over and over you might learn something. I deeply, and I'm sure most others here feel similarly, resent you characterizing our principles as loving terrorists more than Americans. FOR THE LAST TIME: it's precisely because we LOVE this country that we don't condone torture.
As Taem so brilliantly said down the thread: "You don't thwart the dark side by joining it."
this thread is torture
this thread is torture
AMEN!!! :twisted:
AMEN!!! :twisted:
Deedee, I plan to torture you
Deedee, I plan to torture you until you understand my position. Do you think that would change your mind?
Don't give me that crap about bleeding heart liberals. My family has a long history of military service to this country. My brother served in the Gulf War and my nephew served in Iraq. I support the US soldiers more than you can ever know.
Still searching for the right brainy quote.
OMG Minnie, the first part of
OMG Minnie, the first part of your reply made me snort my milk through my nose! (yes, milk--anybody got a problem with that?)
Does anyone else suspect that
Does anyone else suspect that Annie Oakley and DeeDee are really Grace Moon trying to stir things up?
"When you look for the bad in mankind expecting to find it, you surely will." ~ Pollyanna
What, not wine? :-)
What, not wine?
Still searching for the right brainy quote.
Milk went better with my
Milk went better with my chocolate cupcake!
Word
Word association:
milk/breasts
chocolate cupcakes/Hostess Snowballs
pink Snowball/breasts
breasts/milk
milk/mystic
Milk, anyone?
Well I guess the answer to my
Well I guess the answer to my question(you guys are dancing all around trying not to give me a YES or NO)is yes you would kill 3000 Americans just to save one Ass wipe of a terrorist .My God what the hell kind of ppl are you the ones of u that would do that.
As Mystic said, we are
As Mystic said, we are principled people.
I don't know where you're from but I'm in the US and this country was founded on principles that we don't always live up to, but which are important nonetheless. I personally believe very strongly in those principles. I love my country and what it's supposed to stand for. Because I love my country and the principles that my ancestors fought for I would not torture a terrorist (suspected or proven). What I would do and have done in the comments below (because it's one of the principles that my ancestors fought for) is speak up when my government betrays me by doing things that are clearly unconstitutional.
Read our Declaration of Independence and Constitution. These documents and the ideas they represent are important. If we really want to be the people that the Founding Fathers meant for us to be then we must NEVER torture anyone. Period.
Now I'm going to take my own advice and stop responding to this woman who is clearly never going to listen to any dissenting viewpoints.
I wouldn't kill anyone; I
I wouldn't kill anyone; I wouldn't waterboard anyone, or "pour water in their face" (as you call it); I wouldn't torture in general. Nore would I have the death penalty - simply because I don't view death as a punishment.
You (America) have a Judicial System. That means your country doesn't have to stoop to the level of a terrorist, or act like a country with a dodgy human rights reputation (which is what the USA started to acquire under Bush and his questionable decisions).
What kind of people are we?
What kind of people are we? People with principles. Supposedly this country is founded on principles, and one doesn't abandon those in times of duress.
Also, your question really makes no sense because those are not our only choices, and torturing a terrorist does not bring any of the 9/11 victims back to life, nor does it honor their memory.
*edit* that should have read
*edit*
that should have read 'suspected terrorist.'
I think some girls around
I think some girls around here need an 'outlet' for their..... 'energy'.
I don't know about anyone else, but a good fuck sure calms me down.
Better get a good rest
Better get a good rest tonight: You have a lot of work play ahead of you. :twisted:
*sigh* I can only hope.
*sigh* I can only hope.
*giggle*
*giggle*
Badass post, Rusty, great
Badass post, Rusty, great info, thanks!
http://www.velvetparkmedia.com/2009/05/06/kelly-picks-a-fight-tortures-d...
DeeDee, I just read your 1st post on this thread, and I cannot believe what a loose cannon you are and how easily you lash out at others, particularly when you may not understand something, instead of just CALMLY asking questions & interacting and seeing where it leads you and everyone else on the topic. Good luck with that approach in life.
Thanks FG, and I'm sticking
Thanks FG, and I'm sticking to my theory that DeeDee and Annie Oakley are really Grace Moon messin with us.
"When you look for the bad in mankind expecting to find it, you surely will." ~ Pollyanna
No! Not our sweet Moonshine.
No! Not our sweet Moonshine.
DeeDee, American lives are no
DeeDee, American lives are no more important than ANY other, all lives matter.
If we have a QUESTION about someone and their intent, this is ENOUGH to justify torturing them, just to (delusively) be on the "safe" side?
Woe is the day they come for you.
Or, as Ben Franklin, one of
Or, as Ben Franklin, one of the authors of our Constitution stated: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
We become what we despise...
Again I ask the QUESTION :
Again I ask the QUESTION : Would you choose to kill 3000 Americans then pour water in ONE terrorists face?
Deedee, sorry, but your
Deedee, sorry, but your question doesn't even make sense.
Still searching for the right brainy quote.
I am asking would you kill
I am asking would you kill 3000(you would choose to not pour water in one terrorist face to tell you whats going down) ppl just to not have to torture one .
Deedee, your question
Deedee, your question presumes that the person being tortured is going to give your full and accurate information. However, there is evidence this is not the case and, in particular, was not the case for 9/11 suspects.
Read this story from National Public Radio: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=103792752
Still searching for the right brainy quote.
Give it up, Minnie. If after
Give it up, Minnie. If after reading all of the responses below (all of them more well thought out than mine, thank you ladies) she still doesn't get it, there's nothing any of us can say that'll get through.
Didn't a good portion of the
Didn't a good portion of the 'torture techniques' used during the invasion, and occupation of Iraq; both performed and supervised, involve the private security firm.... Blackwater?
And, should private 'security firms' be involved in the business of........ "war" ?
It's been awhile since basic
It's been awhile since basic training but several lessons are seared into my memory. One of those is the day we were marched into a large auditorium. The Ballad of the Green Beret blasted from the speakers and the bass was so high that the floor shook. Even at 19 I was a bit of a cynic; I remember thinking "Hear it comes, anti-Commie propaganda."
I could not have been more wrong. We were there for a lecture on the soldier's responsibility if ordered to take an illegal action.
After a lot of explanation of what happened at My Lai, we were told an unlawful order would most likely be in the guise of an indirect request.
That's what happened at Abu Ghraib. The soldiers were told to "soften up" the prisoners for questioning.
If given an ambiguous order that I suspected was illegal I was trained to repeat exactly what I thought I was being told to do.
What the soldiers at Abu Ghraib (or anyone in a similar situation) should have said was, "Sir (or Ma'am) are you asking me to __________?" That puts the onus on the superior to take responsibility for issuing an unlawful order.
If the superior says "Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying," the soldier is to say that they believe the order to be unlawful. Sir or (or Ma'am)The UCMJ forbids torturing prisoners.
If the superior insists, the soldier is to refuse to obey the order and notify JAG.
The UCMJ is clear: ART. 93. CRUELTY AND MALTREATMENT
Any person subject to this chapter who is guilty of cruelty toward, or oppression or maltreatment of, any person subject to his orders shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Please, someone tell me that this is still part of the training.
"When you look for the bad in mankind expecting to find it, you surely will." ~ Pollyanna
Rusty, I can't remember what
Rusty, I can't remember what kind of service you did--was it full-time active duty, Reserves, or Guard?
I ask because I'm wondering if Guard units would have received the same instructions--many of our troops in Iraq were not full-timers and may not have been adequately 'prepared.'
I was Regular Army but Guard
I was Regular Army but Guard and Reserve training is identical because we all go through Basic together.
"When you look for the bad in mankind expecting to find it, you surely will." ~ Pollyanna
Ok, thanks for the info,
Ok, thanks for the info, Rusty. I'm thinking they all need to practice (maybe they do?) being in those kinds of situations. It's one thing to know what the right course of action should be, another to actually do it under duress. I'm thinking of how self-defense classes are taught--how you have to condition your mind and body not to panic and to create, through constant drilling, new instincts.
Kelly I am so tired of you
Kelly
I am so tired of you PISSING all over OUR soldiers ,WTF you would choose to kill 3000 Americans then pour water in ONE terrorists face.If you hate our soldiers so much and call them savages then get the fuck out of America and go over seas
I have never heard you once write about how our soldiers are treated (and Americans for that matter) by the terrorists ,cutting there heads off .The very ppl YOU CALL savages fight for your right to call them that.And don't come here with this BULLSHIT I don't call them savages.Please God go over seas and live with them.
Reality Check, Dee Dee. It is
Reality Check, Dee Dee. It is a hell of a lot more than pouring water in someones face. It is nastiness. Pure, unmitigated nastiness. You don't thwart the dark side by joining it. You don't guarantee your own liberty by denying it to others. And you don't get any useful information by abusing people. Ask any battered child who had to lie to her mother and tell her whatever the fuck she wanted to hear just to stay alive. It doesn't work. Period.
You are trading your spirit for shit.
Deedee, I won't repeat what
Deedee, I won't repeat what Robin, Minnie and Kelly have said, which I agree with wholeheartedly. What I will say is that the best protection of our soldiers' physical and mental well-being is to not be involved in torture AT ALL. The military does NOT want to torture because it realizes that it puts its troops in harm's way on many different levels. But the military unfortunately takes orders from the President and the CIVILIAN-run Pentagon. So we had folks like Cheney and Rumsfeld, who pulled every string they could to get out of military service, calling the shots and telling the military how to go about its job.
John McCain, a former POW, has insisted that America must not torture because retribution will ultimately be taken on OUR soldiers. In addition, any normal person without a sadistic streak cannot participate in torture and not suffer great psychological damage themselves. If you don't believe me, please read about Alyssa Peterson, who Rusty mentioned last week:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/greg-mitchell/us-soldier-killed-herself_b_...
If you really care about American soldiers you should absolutely oppose America's use of torture.
Oh, and by the way... how
Oh, and by the way... how many deaths annually do cigarettes cause? Way more than 3,000, but we haven't bombed the tobacco companies. September 11 was a tragedy. No doubt. But everything that has happened since that day, in the name of those victims has been utterly ridiculous.
Won't you be my neighbor? @theKELword
how many deaths annually do
how many deaths annually do cigarettes cause? Way more than 3,000, but we haven’t bombed the tobacco companies.
We should, though. Really, we should. Or at least tear them down.
What Minnie, Robin, and Rusty
What Minnie, Robin, and Rusty said times 1000!
You obviously decided what my post was about BEFORE you read it. I've never ONCE condemned our soldiers. Not here, not in any post. Like Minnie said, read the sentence. I'm calling the other armies savages, and even then partly mockingly. So many people consider them to be savages because they do things like torture, and yet, when WE torture, it's necessary. THAT's the only bullshit here.
Won't you be my neighbor? @theKELword
If there's going to be a
If there's going to be a cougar fight, please PM me with 30 minutes notice. I totally missed the last one and they take forever to sort out in retrospect.
As a US Army veteran I
As a US Army veteran I support Kelly's post 1000%. Several points:
1. Torture is always immoral; it doesn't matter who does it or why.
2. When the exact same treatment is applied to US soldiers we do call it "torture."
3. The morons in the US government who gave the go-ahead to torture made it open season on our military personnel to be tortured in return.
4. Every soldier is taught that they have a responsibility to disobey unlawful orders. Torture violates US law and they should have refused. Two very brave female soldiers did refuse and I posted their stories last week.
5. If the goal of torture is to get actionable intelligence, it doesn't work.
"When you look for the bad in mankind expecting to find it, you surely will." ~ Pollyanna
I also didn't read this as
I also didn't read this as being an indictment of any soldiers, but rather an indictment of the politicians and lawyers who gave them the go ahead to use torture as a method for obtaining intel. There are several problems with the powers that be's actions-
As I've heard it, torture doesn't work. If you torture someone long enough they will tell you what you want to hear, not the truth.
As Minnie points out, other people treating us with savagery is not an excuse for us to do the same thing. If we are trying the be the people we claim we are then torture is unacceptable. Period.
I personally have a problem with people who can't seem to separate what the soldiers on the ground do (because they're following orders) and the people who tell them to do it. A friend of mine is currently serving in Afghanistan, I would hope if she was asked to do this sort of thing that she would stand up for right and refuse but I also understand it would put her in a terrible position since it would possibly wind her in jail. On the other hand I don't have the slightest bit of a problem with arresting GW and his cronies for telling the soldiers to torture people.
Robin, you are right about
Robin, you are right about the possible consequences for a soldier who refuses to follow an order because it demands that ze perform an illegal or immoral behavior. However, I don't think this should abrogate their responsibility. Yes, the higher up the more severe the punishment should be. But all who participated in these heinous actions should be held responsible. The fact that one might be disdained by ones peers or even put in harms way in order to do what one knows is right, does not absolve anyone of moral responsibility.
Anyone who enlists in the armed forces ought to know what ze is getting into. Sometimes life sucks and we just have to deal with it.
I was not suggesting, nor do
I was not suggesting, nor do I feel, that soldiers follow orders like good little automotons. Rather I was saying that they would be placed in a situation of having to make a difficult decision. I would hope that if it were me I'd make the moral choice and not torture someone. Truth is, none of us knows how we might respond to a given situation until we're in it.
My point in the prior post really is that we should have learned from Vietnam and be able to separate the lowly soldier on the ground from the politicians who give them their orders. Saying GW & his I'll should be held accountable is not the same as indicting foot soldiers.
Yep, yep, and yep. lol, I
Yep, yep, and yep.
lol, I read ilk without even noticing it. I don't know how you do anything on that tiny little thing. I borrowed one from a friend to check my email and it took me 15 minutes just to find the message and make a 1 sentence reply. That you could do the whole paragraph in under an hour amazes me.
I've been typing texts on a
I've been typing texts on a cellphone with a full QWERTY keyboard for the past year. I'm pretty good at thumb typing. The iPhone's problem is that it automatically replaces your typing with what it thinks you want to say unless you make the little suggestion go away. That requires that you look at the keyboard and the result at the same time (since you can't type on the tiny touch keyboard without looking). I'm sure I'll get better with time. I've only had it 2 weeks after all.
Oh and I also meant to say "that soldiers 'should' follow orders like good little automatons".
Okay, iPhone predictive text
Okay, iPhone predictive text sucks. Need post edit abilities. "GW and his ilk."
Deedee, re-read Kelly's
Deedee, re-read Kelly's sentence again. The word "savages" in her sentence applies to others, although ironically, not to our soldiers.
Also, I am reminded of a quote from Bishop Desmond Tutu:
We must not allow ourselves to become like the system we oppose.
Still searching for the right brainy quote.
Let's face it, there is no
Let's face it, there is no longer a standard for justice in this nation.