Butch Voices Conference
Diana just pinged me through gchat because she was irritated at the coverage of the Butch Voices Conference on Jezebel. The article was actually coverage of an interview NPR did with the founders of Butch Voices.
We had a short back and forth about how dumbed-down queer topics become in straight media. Since we are so grossly underrepresented in the media, it's hard not to bristle when you hear queers speaking on behalf of all of us. I'm not sure I'm entirely comfortable with the way these butches define butch identity, but I'm glad they had the opportunity.
I guess we should just be happy there is some coverage and people are talking about it. What I really wish is that straight people were under the same kind of scrutiny. What I wish for Christmas is that every straight man and woman has to explain their identity; clothing choices, make-up and shoes choices, as well as how masculine or feminine they feel, to queers worldwide.
Check the comments on Jezebel and see how the straight girls try and navigate butch identity:
hippichx: er... i never had any preconceived notions about "butch" except that maybe they were tomboyish. also, i have a total crush on rachel maddow. i have this weird thing for intellectuals, so i have no idea if it has anything to do with her appearance...
back on point, though, i definitely think of a butch lesbian as a tomboy person. it has nothing to do with their gender or sexuality, so much as an aversion to glitter and such. kind of like how i don't see the femme lesbians as anything but women who like to get dressed up. femme gay men strike me as men who are into fashion. just because a man is gay, doesn't mean he can't be into football and beer.
i don't understand why a person's sexuality changes the meaning of their personal style or visa versa... to be honest, i saw a girl with a shirt that said "gay is the new black" the other day... and it made me sad... cause it's true. this wouldn't be an issue if it wasn't the now subject. men and women of all makes, all gender preferences, all whatever could just be who they want and fuck who they want.
jeez that inadvertently turned into a rant.
JerkoftheMonth: I very much support the idea that gender-identity should be self-defined and separated from stereotypical language.
Why then do particular LGBTs employ terms like 'butch' to define themselves (I understand why others would define them as such in ignorance) thereby aligning themselves with a certain expectation of gendered stereotype? Having supposed 'masculine' characteristics is one thing, but then characterising yourself as 'butch' while also crying foul about the negative connotations of the word is very confusing to me.
Rooo:
Okay. I am way out of my depth here, but --
since when is one's intellectual capacity tied to one's sexuality?
NerD!!! - R.O.A.C.H. @Rooo sez BISH PLZ:
I think they are talking about how there is a stereotype about how a person who is considered Butch would think and behave.
I had to do some reading. I kind of get it. It seems that people don't consider Maddow butch because of her intelligence.
I get that because I wouldn't think of her as butch. In fact, until now I would have never considered that I had a preconceived notion of what butch is.
Sarah Dove: @Rooo sez BISH PLZ: To add to what NerD!!! said, I get the impression that many people expect butch people to be very keen on sports and manual work and to have kind of a coarse, bluecollar, salt of the earth quality about them - that that's part of the stereotype, in addition to grooming, dressing and speaking in ways traditionally considered masculine. Rachel Maddow appears refined and polished, as well as book-smart, so she doesn't fully fit that stereotype of 'butch.' Discussing it now, I realise that I had sort of assumed that the butch style or identity was closely linked to the blue-collar, working-class hero thing, and unconsciously expected them to be quite anti-intellectual. It's nice to have my attention called to the greater complexity of this particular subculture.
You can listen to the NPR interview below:
Comments [44]
The interview
I finally got the interview to play and I think they did a nice job of emphasizing that there is a lot of diversity among individuals who identify as Butch. I would have liked to hear from someone who was on the softer side of Butch as well. I feel there might have been a slightly heavy emphasis on the AG side of it, but that is probably my personal background coming into play. The people I know who identify that way tend to be very vocal about not identifying as Butch; they see it as something different. As with most things, I think our views and ways of expressing ourselves vary quite a bit based on our backgrounds and current communities.
Another thing that surprised me was the reference to Butch as originating with folks from the white working class. Does anyone have any background on that? It seems to me that there must always have been folks from every background who had this experience. Are they referring specifically to the term Butch, rather than the concept of self perception of a Butch identity? I'm a bit lost on that one.
Photograph
Tae, if you take a look at the photograph for this blog in the front page slide show, you can spot the word, "Futch" on the tee shirt for the person on the left in the photo. I take that as evidence that there was representatives of the soft butches at the conference (assuming that pic is from the conference; not sure of its origin). Perhaps, we should contact NPR to tell them that in the future in would be good to have more voices represented in their coverage.
To Rusty, who may be reading this thread: Sorry that I had to mention the word, "Futch" as I know how you feel about it. Which just goes to show there is a diversity of types of butchness among the butches, right?
Regarding Butch being identified with working class, I have been consulting Lillian Faderman's 1991 book, Odd Girls Out and Twilight Lovers: A History of Lesbian Life in Twentieth Century America. There's a chapter called Butches, Femmes and Kikis: Creating Lesbian Subcultures in the 1950 and '60s that gives me some insights into the various experiences of working class, middle class and upper class lesbians of this period. This is just one history and it is almost 20 years old, so if anyone can suggest another good more current analysis of our history, I'd appreciate it.
Civility is not a sign of weakness.
Boots of Leather...
Boots of Leather and Slippers of Gold by Madeline Davis and Elizabeth Kennedy is an ethnographic study and has really good class analysis. It's from 1994 so it's not much more current than Faderman's Odd Girls, but it's comprehensive and well researched.
I was surprised VP hadn't written about the event but I guess this conference will be on the radar for next year. Lot's of buzz from the folks coming back. All good.
Didn't catch it in the phot
but I definitely agree. See my reply to Grace below. Got to get these lenses replaced.
Defining Butch identity
Am interested to hear what you're not comfortable with re: defintions at the conference ... - because they went out of their way to _not_ define,... see below...
From the Butch Voices Website: We are woman-identified Butches. We are trans-masculine Studs. We are faggot-identified Aggressives. We are noun Butches, adjective Studs and pronoun-shunning Aggressives. We are she, he, hy, ze, zie and hir. We are you, and we are me. The point is, we don’t decide who is Butch, Stud or Aggressive. You get to decide for yourself
Perhaps
I'm at a disadvantage of not having been at the confrence, and gleening 2nd hand through the straight media what went down.
What I was refering to in my post was listening to NPR, and reading Jezebel — it appeared to me those individuals interviewed were speaking for the entire sub-culture. Again, for butch people to be able to introduce queer idenitity to the MSM is awesome. Defining who we are within the queer community is an impossible task. I'm sure we will all never agree. I idenitity as butch and none of the above descriptions nor the way the individuals in the interview, I feel aptly charaterizes my idenitity.
You question warrents a longer answer, which I will think about and hopfully come to a coherent answer.
tweet tweet @gracemoon
And a fine Butch you are!
I do think it would have been nice to hear from more voices along the Butch spectrum. I bet if we had random snap shots and conversation loops from the conference, that would have been evident.
Hi sweetie, just an
Hi sweetie, just an FYI...it's spelled "conference".
"Fight Prime Time. Read a Book"
Hey PK!!! How's it
Hey PK!!!
How's it going??
xoxoxo
Personally....
I'm tired of hearing our community dissect every nuance of our lesbian and gay identity. I'm a woman who just happens to be a lesbian - big fucking deal gay America. Now, can WE just try to get over stereotyping ourselves......please.
Verbal processing
Some folks process that way. I talk/write through just about all of the important aspects of my life, even if no one else will ever hear or read it. Conferences like this give folks an opportunity to share their quandaries and simply talk it through. They also acknowledge and often promote acceptance of differences within the greater queer community. And personally, I think we need a whole lot more of that.
If its not your processing style, or you don't feel comfortable identifying with that group, why not just go on about your life? I guess I just don't see how their group analyses or communal introspection is hurting anyone.
Wow.
"If its not your processing style, or you don't feel comfortable identifying with that group,why not just go on about your life?"
What? Excuse me, but who said that I wasn't 'comfortable identifying with that group' ? You're not serious, right? I'm laughing too hard to even finish this....
Geez, I'm beginning to think that I've really worn out my welcome around here.
Just to clarify
By that group I meant Butch, not the queer community. I have never questioned your identification as a Saphic Sister. Envisioned it a time or two, but never questioned it.
By go on with your life I meant read it and then move onto another post, not take a hike.
I realized on the reread how it could be read with another tone. What I meant to question was why you would take it as a personal offense, but I think we figured that out.
General U
That was the general you of modern English. However, this is the specific one. Why are you biting me, cute little pooch? I haven't yanked your tail.
That was a sincere inquiry, so please do not take it as snark.
hey MacLass_19
I've always wondered what you look like, do you have any pics of yourself?
www.dianacage.com
@dianacage
I don't think .....
you can post pictures from prison.....I'm just saying!!!
Lake
My POV
I'm not sure who you are talking about when saying our community is stereotyping ourselves.
In any case, when I listened to the NPR interview, I heard the two founders striving to discuss the complexity of butch identity(ies) in order to help surpass stereotyping. It actually helped me to listen to their discussion...despite the fact that in my comment below I said that I was tired of having to thinking about it.
Civility is not a sign of weakness.
I could have your meaning
I could have your meaning wrong here, so bear with me. But if by "stereotyping ourselves," you mean embracing one of the myriad ways in which to identify as butch or femme and engaging with one another to figure out what that means to ourselves and to each other then I can't help but find your reduction of someone else's identity and culture to "stereotypying oneself" to be offensive. I am surprised and dismayed by the frequency with which some folks around here get so consistantly riled and/or dismissive when the discussion of butch/femme comes up as a topic. But I'm interesting in learning why those folks feel that way about it. Care to explain from your POV?
Well......
Julia, I'm certainly not riled / and or dismissive.... And, you are way off base in assuming that I am trying to offend anyone. And yes, you do have my meaning wrong. Very wrong.....
Enough said.
You seemed riled by the tone
You seemed riled by the tone of your post and the fact that it was punctuated with an "angry" type emoticon. I didn't say I thought you were intentionally trying to offend anyone. I said that if I was correctly interpreting your comment, that I, personally, was offended by it. If that's not what you meant, that changes things. But you have made comments in the past about butch/femme which I have found to be reductive, dismissive and offensive. On the flip side, you've also made comments in the last year or so to the effect that you have come to think differently about and have become more open-minded about butch/femme than you were in the past, on account of engaging with me and other folks around here about this stuff. You say that I have your meaning wrong, and I'm still interested in better understanding what you meant by "stereotyping ourselves" if my interpretation of that phrasing is that far off-base. It sounds like you're not interested in discussing this any further. I was just hoping to clarify your meaning because the implications of your post bother me.
Just to be honest, it felt
Just to be honest, it felt dismissive to me. But if that was not your intention, I apologize for mis-reading the tone of your comment.
To explain: Sometimes I am very sensitive on this topic because over my long life I have personally experienced dismissiveness of butches, in the straight community and in the gay community.
To put it plainly, that has deeply hurt my feelings.
If you were simply saying that you would like to be accepted for who you are--by all-- I think we have common ground in our thoughts and feelings. Smile.
~Mins
Civility is not a sign of weakness.
Minnie, you put that so well.
Minnie, you put that so well. That's the core of why I want to understand what is meant here, too--because my feelings have also been really hurt about this stuff coming from both the gay and straight communities.
Mins........
Come on - I am talking about respect. Respect for all of us. All flavors, all stripes, each and every one of us regardless of how we may personally identify..... I truly believe in one world , and one love. Not separating, and isolating us by 'title's'. I wish that I could express myself better, obviously - I'm not.
I think I'd better just stop commenting on issues like this.... I always end up looking like a judgmental ass, and that is 360° from who I am.
Again, this may not be what
Again, this may not be what you mean to say, but your comments imply that you are tired of listening to other lesbians talk about butch/femme because when the topic comes up, it makes you feel disrespected since it's something you don't personally relate to in the way that you identify. I get that this may not be what you mean, but it is what consistently comes across to me when you comment about this stuff, and it's hard for me to figure out why anyone would feel disrespected by discussion about something just because it doesn't apply to them. It's an especially confusing conclusion to arrive at when you also consistently express respect for "All flavors, all stripes, each and every one of us regardless of how we may personally identify."
Once again.....
You are dead wrong.
Hey ML,
Hope you're having a relaxing morning. We got some rain here and everything is gleaming with freshness. I that spirit, I decided to give the topic a good rinse on the reread. I would like to run this by you with the understanding that I am not trying to put words in your mouth or make any judgment of how you perceive yourself or the world. Something just clicked on the reread, and I want to see if I am getting closer to your intended meaning.
Are you saying that you do not care for labels, whether applied by us or those outside of our community, because they tend to divide us? If so, I totally agree. If so, I also understand how you might become frustrated with a post that is all about labels, especially if it occurs at time when the topic has boiled up on a personal level for some reason. I know you did not relate such an incident; I acknowledge that I am deliberately projecting to try and infer what could be a motivator.
Again, if any or all of the above is correct, then your response could have been an excited utterance of frustration about a tendency within society, and not necessarily against the blog itself.
Just a guess, really. Because I have done that myself. On the whole, I don't care for labels, aside from the occasional need to scream I am WOMAN! I also understand that some folks explore labels like they are looking at a Venn diagram, finding similarities and differences and embracing both.With that in mind, it is natural to expect that you had no intention of offending anyone or denying them their right to express their identity in a way that works for them. You could have just been frustrated with the divisiveness that so often seems to permeate our world.
Please let me know if any parts of this are close. And again, I am not trying to put words in your mouth or critique anyone or anything. Just reaching out for the meaning intended by a person who means something too me.
Tae~
Thank you for the reread... You just stated what I was feeling when I read the blog, and then looked at the bigger picture.
All I can add is this, and I will reiterate it for the last time on this site.... I love all of my sisters in our beautiful community of women.... And, judging how anyone personally identifies is the furthest thing from who I am.
I feel that I should have never shared that I identify as femme, and am attracted to the same. For with that statement, and the misunderstandings about many of my comments, I will forever be judged regardless of how I have opened my heart - and my soul - to embrace the differences between us as women who, often times, live marginalized lives in a world who would rather forget that we exist....
You stated that quite eloquently Tae, thank you.
You are very welcome
As many times as I have heard it, it always startles when folks relate that they get shit for femme on femme pleasuring. It's not my thing, but I think it's beautiful. I also think Butch on Butch is beautiful, and Femme on Butch, and Trans woman on Lesbian, and... In short, I respect how people choose to name themselves, and anyone who is openly and respectfully loving another individual is beautiful to me. So go get yourself another fine Femme.
Just remember to send me pictures.
Much love,
Tae
Here. Here. And I read those
Here. Here. And I read those comments as straight folks who were presented with a new idea and trying, thoughtfully, to understand it.
*I debated. Is that supposed to be "Hear. Hear"?
**By 'thoughtfully' I mean 'putting some thought into it". The literal definition of the word.
I wonder if this dissecting vs not dissecting thing is the difference between the queer studies folks and the rest of us?
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That is an interesting point,
That is an interesting point, too, about queer studies folks vs. non-queer studies folks. Moon had some interesting stuff to say about that not too long ago. I'm running on 7 hours of sleep in the past 60 hours, though, so for the life of me, I can't remember what she said exactly.
Need to analyze
Then there are the folks who for as long as they can remember have had to sniff and examine from 12 different angles every bite that passed their lips. When they started talking, the same impulse just naturally transferred to words.
Pssst. Rigby! Yes, it's
Pssst. Rigby! Yes, it's "hear, hear."
really? straight people aren't questioned about their identity?
What about hipsters, nerds, "working class," "white trash," suburbanites, yuppies, yupsters, hardcore, nerdcore, post-punk, post-modern, into blond chicks, into bald guys, tit man, ass man, size queen, cougar, cradle robber, sugar daddy, sugar momma, divorcee, promise keeper, penis size, breast size, spiritual depth, income...
those
aren't really identities of sexual orientation, or gender expression, which is really what i was refering to.
I think all queers actually have all those additional idenitites you mention, and we have the additional burden of having to explain fundamental questions about our identities that straights don't have to.
tweet tweet @gracemoon
Like why, as a butch
you choose to wear your hair in those lovely soft waves that so nicely mimick the sculpture of your arms?
Why do people question the personal perfection that is revealed when floks choose to simply be themselves?
I totally agree with your
I totally agree with your comment here Grace.
I totally agree with your
I totally agree with your comment here Grace.
in lieu of that
yes, the Other is always disproportionately dissected
I could relate...
I listened to the NPR interview discussion with the two founders of the Butch Voices conference (thanks for posting). They talk about how the identities as butch running the gamut. They talk about being in the situation having to negotiate identities due to expectations from society and culture about gender conformity. They talk about issues related to race, ethnicity and class. I can relate to all of that. It made me wish I could have attended the conference.
I can also relate to the frustration of straight people never having to answer questions about their gender identity.
I'm tired of thinking about myself and my gender identity, so am going off to get a coffee.
Civility is not a sign of weakness.
Let's just start asking them.
Ask those
questions to a straight person and all hell would break out about their rights being violated!!!
Lake
Hear, hear!
...and yet I love how straight women assume all butch lesbians are uneducated and good with their hands. Well at least they got it half right...
'scuse the sidebar, but...
Yaaaaay! Uncle Aimee's back!
LMAO!!!
So true!!!!!
Lake