Three-Way: Top Hot Butches... Only Not
Faced with the task of dissecting the Top Hot Butches List from a butch-lusting femme point-of-view, Julia Watson and Elizabeth Koke call in the cavalry by way of Katie Liederman.
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Katie: Diana said she couldn't discuss the 100 Top Butches list because we're dating the only hot butches out there. How depressing.
Julia: Right?!
Elizabeth: I mean, it’s true. We do have the hottest ones. Okay. So, I was at first just kind of disappointed that my girlfriend wasn't on it.
Katie: But I disagree with her. I also disagree with that heinous list. The list SUCKED. Here's why: It's kind of like coming up with a list of your 100 favorite unicorns, or 100 favorite colors. There just aren't that many.
Julia: Only some of them are pegasus, and some are flying elephants and some are My Little Ponies.
Elizabeth: HAHAHA.
Katie: Exactly. And some of them are Joan Jett.
Joan Jett, as pictured in the Top Hot Butches Top 100.
Elizabeth: I read the "About" section, and I get what the goal was... to show examples of female masculinity. But yeah, I wouldn't ever picture JJ as butch.
Katie: Yes... but she clearly added another line after being bombarded with hate mail about how "butch" just refers to people who are masculine, regardless of gender. To which I say, first of all, no.
Elizabeth: Well, right. Butch has a really specific meaning that is nuanced and historical. If we are talking about "big B's," as I like to call them, anyway. But I'm sure anyone can be a "little b" butch...
Katie: You lumped femmes with futches with transmen and genderqueers and managed to feature approximately zero butch women on your list.
Julia: I think my thing with the list is that I feel like people who have publicly distanced themselves from the word "butch" (for example, Dani from Tila Tequila's skank harem and #93 here) have no place on a list celebrating butch identity. But then again, I get what Elizabeth was saying about it seeming like the author's intent was to celebrate female masculinity.
Katie: Also, it's not hot to be a fading reality TV star. Like, this list has gotten a lot of press, at least in queer media. Couldn't the person who compiled it have spent more than ten minutes leafing through a ten-year old copy of Curve magazine, listing whatever names she saw
Comments [98]
I proudly claim the label
I proudly claim the label "butch" today because it was used as a weapon against me through much of high school.
I couldn't go to the library, cafeteria, or any school event without some jock yelling "Butch!" and laughing. There were no gay/straight clubs on campus and there were no school policies to protect me. "Gay-bashing" wasn't even a word yet.
One day in my junior year I'd had enough. I was in a stairwell and passed by the vice principal's son. (He was one of the worst tormentors.) He said, "Hey Butch, what's up?" I don't know what it was that made that day different, but I grabbed him by the throat, shoved him against the wall, and told him I'd kill him if he ever bothered me again. And I meant it.
He stopped but the others didn't. I didn't care. I embraced the word and decided it would never be used against me again.
I (and others who went through the same or worse experiences) earned the right to be called "butch." And that's why the inclusion of women on the list who don't self identify (or even worse - run from it) is wrong.
We are star stuff. We are the universe made manifest trying to figure itself out. ~ Delenn
rusty, everything about your
rusty, everything about your anecdote is hot.
bar fight
bar fight
erin, everything you write is
erin, everything you write is hot. seriously.
My sister told me that the
My sister told me that the other day my seven year old niece said to her "Aunty Steph is not a girly girl is she mum?" (We haven't had the "two auntys" conversation yet...) Anyway, my point is I don't really know what I am. It's not that I am uncomfortable with labels, I have just never really thought about myself in those terms. I think I'm a tomboy....
Great blog.
Well I have said this before
Well I have said this before ,I have some great butch friends (would NOT give them up for anything)but my butch friends know I love femmes and they understand that and always try to set me up with them(God love'em )
Julia,have you ever dated a femme and if so how did you like it.
I'm not sure I've ever
I'm not sure I've ever "dated" a femme, but I've had a few lovers who were femme and I enjoyed those relationships very much. They were always fleeting things, but lovely. I'm still attracted to certain femmes (bossy ones, for instance), but I'm not all that interested in having a relationship with one. I've learned from experience that I'm happiest being with a butch, and my attraction to butches is far more robust anyway. For whatever reason, that yin-yang gender dynamic between two women feels like home to me.
Went and looked at the top
Went and looked at the top 100 Top Butches according to Sinclair...quite a lineup. I think I am confused...a Transman is now a butch lesbian???
Love Tracy Chapman....regardless!!
tracy should have made it a
tracy should have made it a lot further up the list.
This is where it all gets
This is where it all gets complicated ... I was watching a documentary last night on a lesbian couple. One half of the couple transitioned into a man.
Question: So is the women/lesbian half of the couple, still able to call herself a lesbian? ... she now mentally, physically (and legally) has a husband.
I'm hearing Barbara Walters in my head asking "What do we tell the children"?
How do we explain this to straight folk, when we can't figure it out in our own community? Someone needs to create a list of guildlines and some new definitions!
lol i still not get what
lol i still not get what butch is
WOW - Lesbians really seem to
WOW - Lesbians really seem to have it in for Dani Campbell :?: OK, foul reality TV show aside ...
I get that people are probably irritated by the fact she didn't outright embrace herself publically as butch, but maybe she doesn't see herself (fully) as that? ... isn't that Dani's 'right'?
I saw a real feminine side to Dani ... I often see the 'girl' inside the butch (I don't know what that's about) - but I do. Even with our own Prof. Crandall - I often see her girly side (even if Emma may not)
I've often heard it preached here, that it's up to the individual to decide how they identify ... however when celebrities (whether A or D list) publically identify themselves, we argue about it and say "no they're not" ... sometimes we turn on them.
As for Ellen, I've seen tabloid pictures of her looking very butch (in her own time) which is another issue ... the feminisation of the butch when they are appearing in a TV show, a movie or reading the news.
Xan, I had quite the little
Xan, I had quite the little crush going on Dani back when I was recapping the first season of Tila Tequila's show for Our Chart. But Dani herself kind of killed it when she acted all offended when someone on the show referred to her as "butch."
There is this utterly sad phenomenon in the queer community of masculine women rejecting butch identity because of the stigma associated with it in this age of lipstick lesbian Glamazons. I believe that's what Katie was alluding to when she brought up "closeted butches." I'm not saying there is anything wrong with lipstick lesbians. But I think that the popularity of that particular dynamic has led to all manner of gross gender policing within our own ranks, adding an overlay of aesthetic disdain to the lingering aftereffects of the overt butch-bashing of lesbian feminists back in the 70's.
I love butches ... The only
I love butches ... The only lesbian I know is butch ...
One day (in casual conversation) I referred to her as such ... It NEVER occurred to me, that she didn't see herself that way. I was taken aback.
She said even her girlfriend said she's "so not butch" ... I was like, really?
I realised maybe sometimes they are not rejecting 'the butchness' or the label, they may truly not see it (or feel it)?
My friend is sooooooo stereotypically butch
you know i wont argue on the
you know i wont argue on the fact that there might be closeted butches
but you say
rejecting butch identity because of the stigma associated with it
---
now personally i see you putting a stigma on some to
namely those who you might con cider to be butch yet do not feel or identify butch them selfs
where is the difference in that?
---
you also said as a reply to Katie;
It is a very specific energy, and I think in large part it has to do with embracing one’s own identity as a butch. And being comfortable with it and celebrating it.
---
maybe those who refuse to call them selfs butch or anything indeed do to embrace there own identity and are comfortable with and celebrate
so why blame those ?
maybe that kind of talk is just as off-putting and offensive to me as the other post about girl in you and my remark about that was to you
sorry for rambling but you aint the only one with feelings
I am 100% in support of
I am 100% in support of individuals who celebrate their own identities. Any way that you want to identify yourself, is a-ok with me. However, for someone who does not identify as butch to be put on a list as one of the hottest butches is b.s.
I thought this blog was about the innapropriate placement of non-butch lesbians on a hot butch list. Yet, I'm reading all this controversy about labels and identities and people being offended by everything under the sun. Jeez-louise. Can we get back to figuring out who the hot butches are?
did i stop you? or told you
did i stop you?
or told you to stop?
i don't think so
well at least you seem to have an idea of what this blog was/is about
i think no matter what conversation etc talk or write or on the net people do tend to get of topic and is that such a bad thing? because topics even if set and boxed are often related to so much more and addressing it i think is good even if or when there might be some heated discussion or emotions and controversies etc.
but to get back to (the topic if it s one?)the figuring out who the hot butches are ?
are you? lets see if we can figure that out
winks
No, I hear you. I knew I was
No, I hear you. I knew I was opening myself up to this line of argument (and a certain amount of messiness) with my comment. Sure I was disappointed to learn that Dani doesn't identify as butch. That's on me, totally. But too, please note that as I said above, I was put off my crush when I saw that she was *offended* when someone called her butch, not simply because she doesn't identify that way. It's the offended part that really bothered me, because yeah, I can't help but see that as part of this larger trend of "butch" being treated like a four letter word. Some of that may be me projecting, but even so, that doesn't change the fact that this trend exists. Where I live, it generally goes without question. That's why I'm so passionate about raising my hand and saying, "Um, no. Not cool."
I own that I am extremely sensitive about this stuff. I think to some extent we all are, and that's understandable. We're all incredibly invested in our queer identities. We have to be. It takes time and energy to arrive at and nurture those identities, and the world we live in forces us to defend them every day. So when we start bumping up against the borders of each other's identities, yeah, it can get messy. But I think it's a worthy endeavor, to talk this stuff out and understand each other better. So thanks for speaking up.
I found it very sexy when a
I found it very sexy when a femme fly to rescue Butch identity
-Do not follow me, I'M LOST-
[So thanks for speaking
[So thanks for speaking up]
ditto !
Excellent observations
Excellent observations Xanadu....
how do you know? you seen her
how do you know?
you seen her yin yang?
did you look?
lol
Kit~ You are a little
Kit~ You are a little devil.....
where did i hear that be
where did i hear that be for?
mmm
yeap i am but one with wings
winks
I wish :lol:
I wish
wishing most times don't
wishing most times don't work
but ...
asking might ?
lol
Please don't look for the
Please don't look for the girl in me (kidding!!).
Minnie - I see the yin - and
Minnie - I see the yin - and the yang :grin:
wow minnie can have a
wow minnie can have a Tree-Way by her self then
minnie-yin-yang
see im sticking to the title topic ?
lol
girl in you? mm that sounds
girl in you?
mm that sounds as if we got to spread your legs to find out if there is or not?
lol
Kit, I'm sure you didn't mean
Kit, I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, and it appears that Minnie took no offense, so let me make it clear that I am only speaking for myself here -- but even a joking suggestion that one would need to "check between the legs" of a masculine woman to make sure there is "some girl" down there is incredibly off-putting and offensive to me. It puts me in mind of the days when butches were harassed by the cops raiding gay bars in exactly that fashion.
Or the Olympic Games gender
Or the Olympic Games gender testing :eek:
on the olympics they test
on the olympics they test anything
if you are disabled have a running leg then you are so called in advantage etc. who did they exclude because of that?
----------------------------------------------------
p.s. comment in general to whom it may concern
we all got our issues/morals/experiences etc that we are sensitive about
cant always know it up front who is to what nor why
hi Julia i can assure you it
hi Julia
i can assure you it was not meant in that way!
and im sorry if it offended you
i apologize if it did
i aint here to hurt people
guess you totally
guess you totally misunderstood the joke or maybe i was not clear enough on it
Kit you are never
Kit you are never mean-spirited.
hi Annie mm i cant nor wont
hi Annie mm i cant nor wont say that i am never mean-spirit
but i know i was not in this case
winks
No, I know you were just
No, I know you were just kidding around without any malicious intent. But there's a really ugly history of abuse perpetrated against "gender deviants," (i.e. butch women) that played out a lot like what you said in your joke. That is what makes the joke not so funny for some of us. I highly recommend reading something like the queer lit classic Stone Butch Blues if you're interested in learning more about queer female history back in the 50's and 60's, and how butch/femme played into all that.
Julia, you know that english
Julia, you know that english is a 2nd language for Kit, non?
the misinterpretation layes
the misinterpretation layes in two word
in me
not between etc
i do know a bit of history and i can say i did hear remarks myself be for that has to do with between legs and some worse
but the joke to me was about the inside part nothing more
guess i cant explain
I got what you were trying to
I got what you were trying to say, Kit. Not to worry. I think what you're trying to explain is that you're looking not for Minnie's 'woman parts' but for another woman between her legs. Am I right?
Minnie, are you finding it at all odd for us to be talking about you this way? Then again, maybe you're dreaming of that mystery woman between your legs?
I think the discussion is
I think the discussion is funny. Also, I note we have a full moon tonight so a little weirdness is in the air.
lol i think its funny to
lol i think its funny to specially now that
Robin got me totally confused on what tv show she might be talking?
how the hack should a dutchy know what was on tv (in an other country) on saterday morning specially if i have no idea what year we talking about?
lol
i know a giant in Lilliput land ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulliver%27s_Travels
does that count?
but im glad i can blame it on the moon !
big relieve that is
winks
very close robin,
very close robin, thanks!
(but actually i had a even ... image in my head of the woman being even more all the way up lol) like i said the key word was that minnie said
in me
winks
but you sure did get the idea
whoopy
i think?
as if i can still think?
mm im of to bed
lol glad to hear Julia being
lol glad to hear Julia
being under the influence of a full
Moon
can do wicked things to us
(and i mean that mmmm Grace fully ?)
winks
although i blame my posts on the influence of green stuff
i think
lol
p.s. next time Minnie has got to warn (or remind) us up front for the full moon
Oohhhhh, okay. I totally
Oohhhhh, okay. I totally misunderstood you then, Kit. Consider me officially un-offended. My apologies. I guess that's what I get for posting under the influence of the full moon. Ha.
Now we have Minnie
Now we have Minnie impregnated? Just kidding of course, it was just the first image that popped into my head. Wasn't there a Saturday morning TV show back when I was a kid that featured a family in a land of giants? What was that called? LB?
Anyhow, a member of that family could fit.
Kit - I got the joke and that
Kit - I got the joke and that you weren't being offensive
Julia just reminded me of that gender testing thing.
Hahahaha, Kit. :-D
Hahahaha, Kit.
see whats happening ? now we
see whats happening ?
now we are all gonna look
winks
eyes down to xanadu and lbdl there comments
you made us do that
lol