Damn I have never had a happy place to go to having sex with men.When I think about having sex with man again ,I feel so damn lucky to be a lesbian (but I am just talking about myself)
Am I the only one who watched this and thought Ilene came across as uptight, humorless (even when she tried to express humor) and far too full of herself? Annoying.
Submitted by Robin Rigby on Thu, 2009-04-30 04:01.
1. Back out slowly
2. Quietly close door
2. Run as fast and far away as keystrokes will carry me and my Comm Studies degrees away from this fucking thread
"When you look for the bad in mankind expecting to find it, you surely will." ~ Pollyanna
Grace, don't mistake self-preservation for wisdom. Every time I read a Zara Thustra comment, I get The Philosopher's Song stuck in my head for days:
Immanuel Kant was a real pissant
Who was very rarely stable.
Heidegger, Heidegger was a boozy beggar
Who could think you under the table.
David Hume could out-consume
Wilhelm Freidrich Hegel,
And Wittgenstein was a beery swine
Who was just as schloshed as Schlegel.
"When you look for the bad in mankind expecting to find it, you surely will." ~ Pollyanna
This is not intended to be disrespectful to Ilene.... However, I didn't hear her mention the two lovely women, Michele Abbott and Kathy Greenberg, who actually were participants in the creation of The L Word.
I like hearing from Ilene again. She was successful in tearing down the media barriers a bit more. But I'd like to see an interview that is a real exchange and not text-questions and sound bytes. We can't get any depth that way.
Submitted by Annie Oakley (not verified) on Wed, 2009-04-29 15:10.
Good point. Also something not put out by showtime or something she is associated with, but an independent source. Though I tend to think she would have a hard time giveing up that much control.
Ok, I've stuck pretty much to critiquing Ilene's work rather than slamming her personally, but if she's going to put herself on tape (yet again!) then I don't see why I have to continue my forbearance.
EWWWW! Gag. She just oozes condescension and arrogance! Particularly with regards to Kate and the character of Shane. Ilene says 'the character I wrote was a sex symbol.' Uh, newsflash Ilene, the character of Shane was a not-so-deeply fleshed out stereotype that Kate brought incredible life to. Everything memorable about the character is due to the actor (and I'm not even a big Moennig fan) and the wardrobe person that dressed her.
Submitted by mysticsmb (not verified) on Wed, 2009-04-29 14:34.
Also, I seem to remember there were two other women who were the character creators for this show. Do you remember that too...story on AfterEllen someone posted.
Yes, I do remember because I read it with great interest. I could be wrong but I think it was Ms. Watson that posted it. Matter of fact, where's she been hiding the past few days? Julia, wherefore art thou Julia?
Submitted by mysticsmb (not verified) on Wed, 2009-04-29 15:23.
Julia's girlfriend visited last week and her straight wife this past weekend and Julia is heading off to the desert (I presume to search for housing when she starts school in the fall) this weekend. I've barely heard from her. Sent a text and got a one word reply this weekend. She should be back next week though.
Submitted by Robin Rigby on Thu, 2009-04-30 04:10.
Wow, I'm really offended by the glibness in your attitudes about transgenderism. I understand the sort of 'post-gender' questions you're positing, but I think you make a huge mistake in saying it assumes there is a 'right' or 'correct' body. How about a body that one is simply comfortable in? And as for saying everybody is uncomfortable at one time or another, in my view that's analogous to a mother telling her lesbian daughter that most women don't enjoy sex with men at one time or another so just lie back and go to your happy place until the deed is done.
I don't know if I can assume you're a lesbian, but if you are why hasn't your experience of your sexuality taught you to listen more rather than judge?
Submitted by mysticsmb (not verified) on Wed, 2009-04-29 13:58.
i'm talking about SEX not gender (I do know that the physiognomic manifestation of one makes the two inextricable).
Second, I did not say that ALL people who believe in the notion of transsexuality make this claim -- but I do believe that it's a prevalent one.
Third, SEX and SEXUALITY are vastly different, the latter, most significantly, is an ACTION. The former is a genetic disposition. Far different things, so, my dear, your attempted analogy is too erroneous to be logical, or, in other words: your analogy ain't.
My 'problem' comes with the misnomer of transSEXuality. You can be transGENDER all you want. Feck it, shaving your head (as I did) changes your gender. But, you can't change your sex. I don't care how much T you take.
Submitted by Zara Thustra (not verified) on Wed, 2009-04-29 14:03.
I'm aware that sex and sexuality are vastly different, so the condescension is unnecessary, my dear--the analogy was about the behavior of the questioner, not the questionee, i.e, those who would, from their limited viewpoint profess to tell homosexuals or the transgendered how they think or feel.
There is no misnomer with regards to transsexuality (as distinct from transgender) which involves medical procedures. If you want to argue transsexuality then take it up with the medical community. But my question is why? And why now? What is at stake for you in this? Because quite frankly your blithe attitude and admission that you're just looking to stir things up seems incredibly solipsistic. Do the transgendered really need one more person in the world questioning who and how they are in the world?
Submitted by mysticsmb (not verified) on Wed, 2009-04-29 15:15.
p.s. I've read your comments below and have a bit more insight into the 'why?' However, why does sex have to be immutable for you? You state that as though it is absolute fact, and I personally disagree, or I'm at least willing to consider that it's not. If you're willing to concede that we can play we our genders and sexualities all we want then why does sex have to be an absolute?
Submitted by mysticsmb (not verified) on Wed, 2009-04-29 15:35.
Minniesota: re the condoms. If you write about real ppl with their very real weaknesses, not using a condom fits into that. Perfection = protect yourself all the time. Human = make impulsive mistakes!
Submitted by Annie Oakley (not verified) on Wed, 2009-04-29 15:08.
Point taken about human impulses. However, I still maintain that it was not inevitable that Max get pregnant and there were other logical, more compelling story lines that could have been explored for that character. For example, what really would it have taken for Tom and Max to have a successful relationship? I think that would have been fascinating.
I guess to think about birth control is to acknowledge one's 'femaleness' ... and a huge element of denial must take over (when one is trans) regarding bio-female health issues i.e: the possibility of getting pregnant; mammograms; smear tests etc.
Submitted by Xanadu (not verified) on Thu, 2009-04-30 03:48.
But there's other reasons to use condoms than to prevent pregnancy. As a gay man, Tom (Was that his name, someone else mentioned it in these comments but I'm too hung over to look for it.) would have been aware of the risks of unprotected sex while as a lesbian/soon to be straight man (the direction Max was headed) Max probably wouldn't have given safe sex as much thought. It would have been normal for Tom then to use a condom, possibly even insist on it.
Submitted by Robin Rigby on Thu, 2009-04-30 12:16.
With you on that one, Minnie. Wouldn't it have been nice to go for something beyond shock value? After all, there are so many true daily challenges for that match up, and Tom was presented as a very caring, positive character who had much more knowledge of diversity and the queer community than did Max. He might have helped Max find options that his own past experiences might would have led him to.
I also would have liked to see some follow up with the gal who went home with Max for his mother's funeral as well as how the son/father relationship evolved.
Awe Minnie, you know we love a good debate around here. Maybe we can just have a goal of keeping taking a breath and rereading our posts before we send them.
Taem PC identity freak? (I would have done that in my name field, but it seems to gum things up in the new format and I don't want to make trouble for the very sweet techies.)
Comments [75]
IC, kiss my grits.
IC, kiss my grits.
Civility is not a sign of weakness.
Go to your happy place until
Go to your happy place until the deed is done.
Damn I have never had a happy place to go to having sex with men.When I think about having sex with man again ,I feel so damn lucky to be a lesbian (but I am just talking about myself)
Am I the only one who watched
Am I the only one who watched this and thought Ilene came across as uptight, humorless (even when she tried to express humor) and far too full of herself? Annoying.
You are definitely not the
You are definitely not the only one....
1. Back out slowly 2. Quietly
1. Back out slowly
2. Quietly close door
2. Run as fast and far away as keystrokes will carry me and my Comm Studies degrees away from this fucking thread
"When you look for the bad in mankind expecting to find it, you surely will." ~ Pollyanna
lol Rusty
lol Rusty
-Do not follow me, I'M LOST-
you've become so wise...
you've become so wise...
tweet tweet @gracemoon
Grace, don't mistake
Grace, don't mistake self-preservation for wisdom. Every time I read a Zara Thustra comment, I get The Philosopher's Song stuck in my head for days:
Immanuel Kant was a real pissant
Who was very rarely stable.
Heidegger, Heidegger was a boozy beggar
Who could think you under the table.
David Hume could out-consume
Wilhelm Freidrich Hegel,
And Wittgenstein was a beery swine
Who was just as schloshed as Schlegel.
"When you look for the bad in mankind expecting to find it, you surely will." ~ Pollyanna
YAY! That song can substitute
YAY! That song can substitute for me taking Philosophy 101. :mrgreen:
Civility is not a sign of weakness.
This is not intended to be
This is not intended to be disrespectful to Ilene.... However, I didn't hear her mention the two lovely women, Michele Abbott and Kathy Greenberg, who actually were participants in the creation of The L Word.
Has Ilene lost her mind.....
http://www.afterellen.com/TV/2009/4/abbott-greenberg
hey thanks for the link LBDL
hey thanks for the link LBDL very interesting
-Do not follow me, I'M LOST-
Yeah, that's the article I
Yeah, that's the article I was trying to remember.
Civility is not a sign of weakness.
I'm simply concerned about
I'm simply concerned about Ilene's mental health....
It's the nurturer in me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIVfbylUU-M
Smile...life is good!!!
I like hearing from Ilene
I like hearing from Ilene again. She was successful in tearing down the media barriers a bit more. But I'd like to see an interview that is a real exchange and not text-questions and sound bytes. We can't get any depth that way.
I agree. An interview where
I agree. An interview where her answers are actually challenged.
Good point. Also something
Good point. Also something not put out by showtime or something she is associated with, but an independent source. Though I tend to think she would have a hard time giveing up that much control.
p.c. identity freaks?
p.c. identity freaks?
well seems the other reply
well seems the other reply did not ended up where it should ?
was a q for :
Zara Thustra
sorry, was out for a
sorry, was out for a bit:
politically correct identity freaks.
Ok, I've stuck pretty much to
Ok, I've stuck pretty much to critiquing Ilene's work rather than slamming her personally, but if she's going to put herself on tape (yet again!) then I don't see why I have to continue my forbearance.
EWWWW! Gag. She just oozes condescension and arrogance! Particularly with regards to Kate and the character of Shane. Ilene says 'the character I wrote was a sex symbol.' Uh, newsflash Ilene, the character of Shane was a not-so-deeply fleshed out stereotype that Kate brought incredible life to. Everything memorable about the character is due to the actor (and I'm not even a big Moennig fan) and the wardrobe person that dressed her.
Also, I seem to remember
Also, I seem to remember there were two other women who were the character creators for this show. Do you remember that too...story on AfterEllen someone posted.
Civility is not a sign of weakness.
Yes, I do remember because I
Yes, I do remember because I read it with great interest. I could be wrong but I think it was Ms. Watson that posted it. Matter of fact, where's she been hiding the past few days? Julia, wherefore art thou Julia?
*driveby frOOting* xo
*driveby frOOting*
xo
Julia's girlfriend visited
Julia's girlfriend visited last week and her straight wife this past weekend and Julia is heading off to the desert (I presume to search for housing when she starts school in the fall) this weekend. I've barely heard from her. Sent a text and got a one word reply this weekend. She should be back next week though.
'Straight wife?'
'Straight wife?'
What minnie said. They've
What minnie said. They've been friends forever, though I've never met her.
Her good friend who is
Her good friend who is straight, who she calls her "straight wife." Julia, we are talking about you. Because we miss you. Smile.
Civility is not a sign of weakness.
Wow, I'm really offended by
Wow, I'm really offended by the glibness in your attitudes about transgenderism. I understand the sort of 'post-gender' questions you're positing, but I think you make a huge mistake in saying it assumes there is a 'right' or 'correct' body. How about a body that one is simply comfortable in? And as for saying everybody is uncomfortable at one time or another, in my view that's analogous to a mother telling her lesbian daughter that most women don't enjoy sex with men at one time or another so just lie back and go to your happy place until the deed is done.
I don't know if I can assume you're a lesbian, but if you are why hasn't your experience of your sexuality taught you to listen more rather than judge?
This should have been a reply
This should have been a reply to Zara Thustra's comments lower down in the thread.
i'm talking about SEX not
i'm talking about SEX not gender (I do know that the physiognomic manifestation of one makes the two inextricable).
Second, I did not say that ALL people who believe in the notion of transsexuality make this claim -- but I do believe that it's a prevalent one.
Third, SEX and SEXUALITY are vastly different, the latter, most significantly, is an ACTION. The former is a genetic disposition. Far different things, so, my dear, your attempted analogy is too erroneous to be logical, or, in other words: your analogy ain't.
My 'problem' comes with the misnomer of transSEXuality. You can be transGENDER all you want. Feck it, shaving your head (as I did) changes your gender. But, you can't change your sex. I don't care how much T you take.
I'm aware that sex and
I'm aware that sex and sexuality are vastly different, so the condescension is unnecessary, my dear--the analogy was about the behavior of the questioner, not the questionee, i.e, those who would, from their limited viewpoint profess to tell homosexuals or the transgendered how they think or feel.
There is no misnomer with regards to transsexuality (as distinct from transgender) which involves medical procedures. If you want to argue transsexuality then take it up with the medical community. But my question is why? And why now? What is at stake for you in this? Because quite frankly your blithe attitude and admission that you're just looking to stir things up seems incredibly solipsistic. Do the transgendered really need one more person in the world questioning who and how they are in the world?
p.s. I've read your comments
p.s. I've read your comments below and have a bit more insight into the 'why?' However, why does sex have to be immutable for you? You state that as though it is absolute fact, and I personally disagree, or I'm at least willing to consider that it's not. If you're willing to concede that we can play we our genders and sexualities all we want then why does sex have to be an absolute?
No, Ilene, it wasn't a story
No, Ilene, it wasn't a story you had to tell (Max gets pregnant). Haven't you heard of condoms?!
Civility is not a sign of weakness.
Minniesota: re the condoms.
Minniesota: re the condoms. If you write about real ppl with their very real weaknesses, not using a condom fits into that. Perfection = protect yourself all the time. Human = make impulsive mistakes!
Point taken about human
Point taken about human impulses. However, I still maintain that it was not inevitable that Max get pregnant and there were other logical, more compelling story lines that could have been explored for that character. For example, what really would it have taken for Tom and Max to have a successful relationship? I think that would have been fascinating.
Civility is not a sign of weakness.
I guess to think about birth
I guess to think about birth control is to acknowledge one's 'femaleness' ... and a huge element of denial must take over (when one is trans) regarding bio-female health issues i.e: the possibility of getting pregnant; mammograms; smear tests etc.
But there's other reasons to
But there's other reasons to use condoms than to prevent pregnancy. As a gay man, Tom (Was that his name, someone else mentioned it in these comments but I'm too hung over to look for it.) would have been aware of the risks of unprotected sex while as a lesbian/soon to be straight man (the direction Max was headed) Max probably wouldn't have given safe sex as much thought. It would have been normal for Tom then to use a condom, possibly even insist on it.
Yup!
Yup!
With you on that one, Minnie.
With you on that one, Minnie. Wouldn't it have been nice to go for something beyond shock value? After all, there are so many true daily challenges for that match up, and Tom was presented as a very caring, positive character who had much more knowledge of diversity and the queer community than did Max. He might have helped Max find options that his own past experiences might would have led him to.
I also would have liked to see some follow up with the gal who went home with Max for his mother's funeral as well as how the son/father relationship evolved.
Good point!
Good point!
To anyone reading this
To anyone reading this thread: I really did not mean to start an argument about sex and gender. I really didn't. Believe me, I didn't.
I should have added to my comment that I only wish IC and the writers would have handled Max's storyline in a much better way.
Civility is not a sign of weakness.
Awe Minnie, you know we love
Awe Minnie, you know we love a good debate around here. Maybe we can just have a goal of keeping taking a breath and rereading our posts before we send them.
Taem PC identity freak? (I would have done that in my name field, but it seems to gum things up in the new format and I don't want to make trouble for the very sweet techies.)
With how many times I've
With how many times I've gotten my sweet ass kicked, I'm somewhat paranoid to post anything !!
**deep breath**
I can't wait for *editing* abilities...
Another strategy would be for
Another strategy would be for us all to keep our focus on your ever so sweet ass. :razz:
Angry, gender enhanced women
Angry, gender enhanced women scare me.......
I don't have a fucking clue what that means.
this comment cracks me up!
this comment cracks me up!
Me neither. Where did it come
Me neither. Where did it come from? I scanned this blog 3 times and couldn't find it anywhere else.
If you are talking about NFL
If you are talking about NFL Cheerleaders, they scare me too. :mrgreen:
Civility is not a sign of weakness.
NFL....... Nude Frolicking
NFL....... Nude Frolicking Lesbians ??
That could be frightening.