Gender & Sexuality with Diana Cage & Professor Crandall: 1
By Diana Cage, on January 3rd, 2009
Diana Cage and Professor Crandall have embarked on a web series about Gender and Sexuality, which they will be exploring weekly. This week they begin the discussion on Butch Femme. — GM
No comments yet to Gender & Sexuality with Diana Cage & Professor Crandall: 1
You were right, Diana. I did like this new segment!
I recently had a straight friend of mine tell me about a reading I might be interested in performing at, but she requested that I not wear a tie. When I asked her why, she said that people might confuse us for a couple, that I was “the man of the relationship.” Ew. She is the last person in the world I would want to be with– she is definitely nowhere near my type. I understand that yes, when we’re together, we do often get mistaken as a lesbian couple. (She has long, flowing hair, big boobs, a curvy ass, and lots of girlyness, I…well, I’m not a girly girl! But I’m not hardcore butch either. I rarely wear ties and have only recently gotten into vests/ hat and scarf combos!) But seriously? Why should I restrict my developing style for your comfort? I am disappointed in Sam right now. While I understand she doesn’t want to have to “deal” with the obstacles of being perceived as a lesbian in our judgemental society, I really cannot even fathom how to respond to her misinterpretation of gender roles and appearance. Doesn’t she get that maybe I don’t like how she dresses when she’s with me, how her girlyness might make others believe she’s my femme-y gf, thus hindering my chance of meeting girls?! I like being able to express who I am, and it bothers me that the stereotypes involved in being lesbian conveyed to mainstream America is butch/femme.
Sorry for my long rant. Keep up the interesting topics, you two! Definitely enjoyed this one.
theater, which deals in roles & therefore role-reversals, as well as rules & transgressions, when it’s any good!, is both the site of queer role-playing & provides a home for queers (offstage & on). the straighter theater gets, the more impoverished, because it’s enforcing norms rather than subverting them. but even at its straightest, theater’s always pretty gay. so theater history is packed with examples from the start.
You see the whole “butch-femme” thing within the transgender community as well.
A decade or so ago, at a womyn’s rap at the local LGBT Center, the facilitator handed out a quiz of sorts, that would determine where everyone fell within the whole spectrum. There were several trans-folk there as well, both trans-women and trans-men.
Nearly all of the women fell into the androgynous middle zone, half leaning towards masculine, half towards feminine. Most of the trans-women went to the far side of feminine, all of the trans-men went to the far side of the masculine. I landed squarely in the middle of androgynous (surprise surprise, lol).
The transgender results, excluding mine, are typical of those going through the Harry Benjamin model for obtaining care. This is mostly due to the fact that, until recently, doctors and related health care workers in the gender care area would require MtF’s to be ultra-feminine (read Stepford wives), and FtM’s to be ultra-masculine (read assholes). The results of the other trans-folk were what is referred to as “practiced,” insofar as these individuals learned through painful experience to give the expected, albeit dishonest, answers, or be denied care and treatment.
My results weren’t typical at the time, mainly because I provided my own care (ordering and adjusting medications, ordering and evaluating labs, etc.), I only had to conform to my idea of who I was, not someone else’s concept of who I should be. One of the many blessings of having medical training and experience is I don’t have to jump through hoops and meet the expectations of others for routine care. The one time I took a psych test (the MMPI), it came back I was a typical middle-aged, middle class, Jewish female lesbian. Go figure, lol. Today, I lean slightly to the femme, although my work is decidedly not very feminine as far as society goes. The former is just who I am today, the latter just pays the bills.
If one’s needs, or in some cases their very survival, depends upon the perceptions of others, this could very well define how the perceive themselves and project that perception to society. Somehow, I’ve managed to escape the trap of being “defined,” mainly because who I am evolves from one day to the next (hopefully for the better).
That.Was.Fun.
I agree with everyone who loved the format.
Suggested future topic: Butches Who Can Cook / Femmes Who Change their own Motor Oil
I have a high femme ex who was into strict gender roles. For example, she insisted on cooking every meal. Most of it was delicious but she sucked at Italian food. Cooking is not my favorite thing, but there was no contest between my pasta, lasagna, etc and hers. She even tried to pass off ketchup as tomato sauce. And yet, she had a problem anytime I took over in the kitchen.
This is the same woman who threw a fit when I called AAA instead of changing a tire myself. (On the side of the freeway; in the rain.)
I’m charmed by this idea that queers do gender better than heteros. I guess I’ve never quite thought of it that way before, but I’m inclined to agree. I think by virtue of being queer, we’re forced to rethink gender identity (our own and just in general) in ways that most straight people never have to. Plus, since we’re already transgressing those kinds of norms on account of who we’re desiring, we have all this extra room to move and explore, and redefine things as we see fit, since we don’t have to worry about conforming to the whole heteronormative thing.
Yay for webisodes about sexy nerdiness starring the two of you!
I adore the format. Casual, comfortable discussions like this are a pleasure to watch……. you both truly compliment each other. I don’t know whether it is a planned balance of input, or simply the ‘natural’ approach, but the pace is nice and your genuine respect for each other is obvious.
Thank you for the video …… great idea.
I’m looking forward to further installments.
In many Native American cultures, feminine men and masculine women tended to be incorporated into the activities of the opposite gender. There was a very famous “berdache” (Hopi? not sure) who was quite outgoing and attracted the attention of white settlers who invited her as a diplomat to meet the Washington DC elite. Throughout the time she traveled and interacted with the white world, no one knew she was really a man. In my reading about this, I didn’t get clear on whether the femme men and butch women were engaged in relationships with people of the same sex, but I imagine they were since they were treated as the gender they appeared to be in every other way.
I imagine butch/femme has been an ancient universal practice in indigenous cultures and widely used throughout history for queer survival. (Don’t have any research on that. It just makes sense.)
I agree with the French commenter. I believe that this phenomena arose much earlier. Certainly in the UK you can find hints of these kind of flexible gender relationships in the 19th Century and in London in the 18th. They may have little to do with modern American butch-fem memes but I think it points to the idea that perhaps these are recurring themes within the emerging queer community. I certainly think that you can trace something like this in England (I say England rather than Britain deliberately to late 19th Century) and in NYC to the same period.
That sent me running for my copy of Lillian Faderman’s “Odd Girls and Twilight Lovers.” I remember how enlightening her chapter on the 1950s, “Butch, Femmes, and Kikis” was for me when I first read it years ago.
I wanted to said something but because i’m french, i would not dare…
I’v met a lot (not just some) of prostitutes in Paris lesbian scene when i lived there. (and it was not in 1940)
They’d be longer if Prof C and I could manage to stay on one thought for more than a sec. I think Moon had to cut them up into shorter segments in order to keep us from rambling all over the place
Not too long! It took 10 minutes to download the 12 MB file. I don’t always have a high speed connection, and this is one discussion I don’t want to miss, lol.
lmao now that does sound familiar ?
Message for Moon …
Please let them jump all over the place.
mmm meaning of course, change topics etc.
when ever i have to focus on just one, then i feel like i am in class / school.
So hack yeah, i don’t mind them talking the way one would talk in a normal conversation.
You switch forth and back on things then to do you not?
lol
besides it is interesting to see how peoples minds work and what they come up with in relation to things /topics et.
so, go ahead diana & Prof C . . .
Rambleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
You guys are both right. Although what we were referring to specifically was not necessarily masculine-feminine lesbian couples but butch-femme as the identity itself exists today.
Actually, you can trace the “butch-femme” roles back to the US Civil War. There were more than a few womyn who “passed” for male who were in both the Union and Confederate forces fighting along side the men, while their partners served behind the battle lines as nurses and cooks. In at least one case I’m a little aware of, the Union Army had a woman serving as an artillery officer, company commander if I remember right. While there was no information on her sexual preference (such issues were irrelevant in wars back then), she allegedly did have a female companion with her who took care of her personal needs.
I’ll have to look this one up. I learned of it doing Civil War re-enactments from a woman who was able to prove the story true, which resulted in her and her partner being able to directly participate in actual combat re-enactments.
I spent a little portion of my life on a reservation (read concentration camp) at a federal “Indian” school. It was kind of interesting interacting with the few traditional elders, who had me pegged from the moment they met me. I kind of wish the school was like that, but it was run by “good church-goin’ folk” who were less than tolerant of any gender variances.
The interesting thing was, I was accepted “as is” by indigenous people who grew up in a more traditional environment, but was a target of those who had been “mainstreamed” into white society.
This was the first time in my life anyone, except for my grandparents, had accepted me for me.
I think in that case, i really don’t know now but 10 or 15 year ago, it was hardly financially sustainable to have lesbians dancing club in Paris, so some of these club have to make allegiance with who run the night scene.
Hey, you got your picture to show! There is no turning back now.
Just read and when you find something interesting, click on reply and let us know what you are thinking.
Don’t worry, we’re friendly folk. A bit bitchy now and then, but mostly friendly.
Hmmm. I hadn’t made that differentiation. Perhaps it’s because when I came out older lesbian couples were butch/femme in the extreme. Most of them actually lived their lives as a male/female couple so they could pass in the larger world. Butches had men’s names–Duke and Larry are two I remember.
In the early-mid 70s, there was a deliberate effort by many lesbian feminist dykes I knew to throw off those “stereotypes”. In certain circles, butch/femme was politically incorrect. That was about the same time “Kiki” became a style more fashionable than the political dykes, somewhat androgynous, definitely favoring shaving body hair and walking the line between butch and femme. I’m glad we’ve come full circle and can celebrate individuality without either the need to pass or to deny our natural self-expression. It feels great to embrace my butchitude.
you deprive your femme of the show of your dripping self changing a tire under the rain? thats must have been very frustrating for her, you cruel.
femmes love to see butch at work, i realized it at a job where there where big windows separate the workshop and the office and all the secretary and the accounting woman stare at me welding, hammering, grinding.. (and they were all married womans)
I grew up in a family that required each and every one of us kids to know how to strip down an engine and put it back together before we were allowed to get a driver license. My stepfather said he didn’t want to have to come out in the rain and snow at 3am to fix something simple.
Having said that, AAA is great for those rainy days on the side of a freeway when you have a flat or weren’t paying attention to the fuel gauge. That’s why people pay for the service. If I’m in a parking lot or my driveway, I’ll change my own flat. If I’m in crappy weather on the shoulder of a busy freeway, I’ll call AAA.
If I’m in my rig and broke down, I’ll call my employer. I may know how to fix things on it, but I’m not allowed to because I’m a driver, not a mechanic. Besides, everything on this thing outweighs me, lol.
Not everyone has come “full circle” into a mode of acceptance and tolerance, unfortunately. A classic example of this is the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival, as well as other “womyn only” events organized by what I term “the old guard,” which are particularly hostile towards anyone that deviates from gender “norms” as they perceive them, especially transgender and intersexed persons.
Trans-men are seen as gender traitors, while trans-women are seen as predatory invaders. Those who are in relationships with us are seen as “confused and in need of guidance.” Such events are always billed as for “womyn born womyn only,” and adopts the very same gender definitions they claim to oppose. This line of thinking goes so far as to segregate male children into “special areas” that will prevent them from “negatively effecting the spirit of womyn.”
What is really weird is I have mixed feelings about this particular form of discrimination being used at these particular events. On the one hand, I think the organizers really need to get with the program and learn a bit about gender and dump their stereotypical views. On the other hand, I know there are men out there who would go to great lengths to get into such events and cause harm to women. I figure that, since I can’t change the discriminatory policies and the bigotry behind them without also solving the very real security issues, I just voice my views about the bigotry but stay away from the events so predators can’t get in.
I met an anthropologist who did wrote a book on “berdeches” (not sure of the spelling). The book was written from a gay man’s perspective, but useful nonetheless. It seems trans-folk would usually fill spiritual and healing roles mostly, having as we do a special insight into the complexities of gender from a variety of perspectives. Amongst traditionals, this still applies to some extent. Amongst the “mainstreamed” (read assimilated), typical “white man’s” views are applied.
Prior to the invasion of 1492, natives in the Americas never had issues with sexuality or gender differences, believing that there was an infinite variety to the expression and combination of each. Unfortunately, this would change dramatically when Europeans arrived. The Spanish, in particular, would execute on sight any transgender or homosexual person they encountered, a standing order at the time from the Catholic Church (which largely controlled Europe at the time).
Of course, many things changed for us after 1492, but that’s a whole different discussion.
This is the answer for the previous question (there was no reply there):
It’s not an emergency but thanks anyway.
I don’t live in Paris I just collect information “just in case” (for emergency)
those spaniards must’ve been shooting a lot of their own priests, without whom there would have been no colonization…
the same indigenous spirit applied heavily in hawaii, where the tradition survived through the 19th century, i believe, and that horrible regime change compliments Dole Pineapple. help, Moonalicious. there’s something queer about hawaii still. people sense that when mr. o vacations there…
Before I got my license, my dad parked my car on a hill and made me change the tire. I’ve changed tires in some ugly situations (mostly when I was in the Army) but I agree, just cause I can doesn’t mean I hafta.
Off topic
Just wanted to say Happy New Year, Erin. I am loving your comments as usual - sorry for my lack of comments in return - I don’t feel clever enough to respond to most of what you say!
LMZ, Dornac and I are enjoying the snow over here today!
Steph
well, isn’t american a foreign language to some people? the web is international. we americans enjoy being reminded there are other languages. we get sick of american. everyone speaks it here. como vai?
I’m with Erin - if it’s more comfortable to speak in the native at times, it’s cool. BUT, I do have a request - if you’re talking about things sensuous, please add the English subtitles
Don’t want to miss the hot thoughts,
as vanessa (yes, that vanessa) once said to me, “being clever isn’t enough.” i didn’t know what she meant then. it’s taken me… nearly 40 years to find out. thank you for letting me know my “cleverness” is off-putting. if i promise to be dull, will you respond?
Oh lordy, I didn’t mean it like that! (I have an uncanny knack of making a compliment come across as the exact opposite…) I promise to respond if you promise that you will NEVER be dull.
There is snow in London and Paris today so we are united across the channel…
blighty
My researches about this play on word was really interesting, thank you.
Do you mean that I have an old Empire british -old fashion- accent when the snow coming from England is dropping on my mouth?
Don’t feel bad, Steph. Sometimes I’m intimidated by Erin’s big, beautiful brain, too. But I’ve found that if one flirts with her a bit, she doesn’t seem to notice how badly read one is.
No, I didn’t. I actually found this site last night - was reading about the role reversals in theater actually - yeah I know, great minds I wish I had known about it when I was in NYC taking in Expatriate. I will make it a point next time….I am not a thespian, but I think it would be fun to “show up” on a Tuesday and give it a go…..you never know, there just might be a part for a lesbian Texan…
“This is mostly due to the fact that, until recently, doctors and related health care workers in the gender care area would require MtF’s to be ultra-feminine (read Stepford wives), and FtM’s to be ultra-masculine (read assholes). The results of the other trans-folk were what is referred to as “practiced,†insofar as these individuals learned through painful experience to give the expected, albeit dishonest, answers, or be denied care and treatment.”
OMG. I love the way you explained this. So enlightening.
Not surprised. Between people so often seeing only what they expect and the way that war encourages us to ignore issues not directly related to survival, what is more startling to me is that gender and orientation are ever an issues there. I would love to see the whole story. It would make a great novel. Or perhaps, when everyone gets tired of all the reality crap they are pushing on TV, a new show.
I feel the conflict, albeit from a different perspective. Perhaps due to personal history, or maybe just because I feel so strongly the “I am Woman”, when I heard about a totally penis free space I was majorly pumped. Unfortunately, by the time the next MWF came around, I was already having issues over the exclusion.
I guess I would like to be healthy and secure enough to say, sure, everyone who is woman should be able to come. But then, I know how uncomfortable I am having to use a bathroom with a penis present. I know that it is a personal problem and history that I need to get over. As such, I make a concerted effort not to let my own struggles negatively impact others. Who knows how successful or lacking those efforts may be. Its not something one can honestly evaluate while living the experience.
On the other hand, I have come to know some individuals who experience this discrimination. Women who were born women, in their hearts and spirits. I have no problem being comfortable with these ladies in any circumstance. I would love the opportunity to experience a women’s space with these powerful female spirits.
So, there is the quandary. As you said, there will always be men out there twisting themselves six ways to hell to mess with us. For me, that has always been penis. Until someone moved this mouse’s cheese. So how do we provide a place for all true women, not dependent on biology, and yet protect that space from impostors? How do we validate our sisters who struggle to be acknowledged as their truest selves, without increasing our vulnerability to others?
You know, Yonks is not only making herself her own blades.
Once, we were walking in the wild nature of a lost island of Greece and I saw her close to a lake, taking a sword from it, that a hand of a woman seemed to give her.
(I hope that this story will last your dreams a little more than one hour).
-contributing activly to myths
LBDL i’m blushing… knowing you, i can picture whats happen in your head, Rachel Meddow changing your tire under the rain, Rachel Meddow in a blue work outfit hammering, grinding…. Rachel Meddow…………………………………………….!!!
Cool - thanks for the tip!! I am sure I can implement your advice without too much trouble…..
As an aside, as I know you keep up with things TV related, we are in the throes of Celebrity Big Brother here in the UK and I am sitting here with Latoya Jackson belting out “Wanna be startin’ something” in the background….. it’s all very surreal….
Are you a voyeur?
Nah, exhibitionists do it on purpose, i was totally innocent (for once)
okay, i admit, they must have been fascinating by a woman welder more than by my butchy hotitude.
YOU was grinding?
You know that 7 inch grinder are very heavy, you cant grind with your arms because it could jump out of you hands so you have to tight your arms against your body, press the grinder on the side of your hip and you grind by moving with your legs and your hip, back and forward, left and right… its very sexy to watch…
I’d love to keep going this manual work classes but i have to go sleep, next time, i will talk about the highest importance of the rhythm wile hamering
stay tuned
The other representatives of the US are Coolio (who is driving everyone mad) and Verne Troyer.
The rest are low level Brit celebs.
It is GREAT entertainment value….
I think that watch a woman welder is watching a social evolution that you may heard of but rarely witnesses.
Watching a butchy hotitude at work involve a kind of implicit sexual charge who is not central for the sociological observation..
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You were right, Diana. I did like this new segment!
I recently had a straight friend of mine tell me about a reading I might be interested in performing at, but she requested that I not wear a tie. When I asked her why, she said that people might confuse us for a couple, that I was “the man of the relationship.” Ew. She is the last person in the world I would want to be with– she is definitely nowhere near my type. I understand that yes, when we’re together, we do often get mistaken as a lesbian couple. (She has long, flowing hair, big boobs, a curvy ass, and lots of girlyness, I…well, I’m not a girly girl! But I’m not hardcore butch either. I rarely wear ties and have only recently gotten into vests/ hat and scarf combos!) But seriously? Why should I restrict my developing style for your comfort? I am disappointed in Sam right now. While I understand she doesn’t want to have to “deal” with the obstacles of being perceived as a lesbian in our judgemental society, I really cannot even fathom how to respond to her misinterpretation of gender roles and appearance. Doesn’t she get that maybe I don’t like how she dresses when she’s with me, how her girlyness might make others believe she’s my femme-y gf, thus hindering my chance of meeting girls?! I like being able to express who I am, and it bothers me that the stereotypes involved in being lesbian conveyed to mainstream America is butch/femme.
Sorry for my long rant. Keep up the interesting topics, you two! Definitely enjoyed this one.
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theater, which deals in roles & therefore role-reversals, as well as rules & transgressions, when it’s any good!, is both the site of queer role-playing & provides a home for queers (offstage & on). the straighter theater gets, the more impoverished, because it’s enforcing norms rather than subverting them. but even at its straightest, theater’s always pretty gay. so theater history is packed with examples from the start.
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You see the whole “butch-femme” thing within the transgender community as well.
A decade or so ago, at a womyn’s rap at the local LGBT Center, the facilitator handed out a quiz of sorts, that would determine where everyone fell within the whole spectrum. There were several trans-folk there as well, both trans-women and trans-men.
Nearly all of the women fell into the androgynous middle zone, half leaning towards masculine, half towards feminine. Most of the trans-women went to the far side of feminine, all of the trans-men went to the far side of the masculine. I landed squarely in the middle of androgynous (surprise surprise, lol).
The transgender results, excluding mine, are typical of those going through the Harry Benjamin model for obtaining care. This is mostly due to the fact that, until recently, doctors and related health care workers in the gender care area would require MtF’s to be ultra-feminine (read Stepford wives), and FtM’s to be ultra-masculine (read assholes). The results of the other trans-folk were what is referred to as “practiced,” insofar as these individuals learned through painful experience to give the expected, albeit dishonest, answers, or be denied care and treatment.
My results weren’t typical at the time, mainly because I provided my own care (ordering and adjusting medications, ordering and evaluating labs, etc.), I only had to conform to my idea of who I was, not someone else’s concept of who I should be. One of the many blessings of having medical training and experience is I don’t have to jump through hoops and meet the expectations of others for routine care. The one time I took a psych test (the MMPI), it came back I was a typical middle-aged, middle class, Jewish female lesbian. Go figure, lol. Today, I lean slightly to the femme, although my work is decidedly not very feminine as far as society goes. The former is just who I am today, the latter just pays the bills.
If one’s needs, or in some cases their very survival, depends upon the perceptions of others, this could very well define how the perceive themselves and project that perception to society. Somehow, I’ve managed to escape the trap of being “defined,” mainly because who I am evolves from one day to the next (hopefully for the better).
[Reply]
That.Was.Fun.
I agree with everyone who loved the format.
Suggested future topic: Butches Who Can Cook / Femmes Who Change their own Motor Oil
I have a high femme ex who was into strict gender roles. For example, she insisted on cooking every meal. Most of it was delicious but she sucked at Italian food. Cooking is not my favorite thing, but there was no contest between my pasta, lasagna, etc and hers. She even tried to pass off ketchup as tomato sauce. And yet, she had a problem anytime I took over in the kitchen.
This is the same woman who threw a fit when I called AAA instead of changing a tire myself. (On the side of the freeway; in the rain.)
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I think it is very interesting that we are discussing this while being flooded with Man on Man adds on a Lesbian web site. Just sayin’.
[Reply]
I’m charmed by this idea that queers do gender better than heteros. I guess I’ve never quite thought of it that way before, but I’m inclined to agree. I think by virtue of being queer, we’re forced to rethink gender identity (our own and just in general) in ways that most straight people never have to. Plus, since we’re already transgressing those kinds of norms on account of who we’re desiring, we have all this extra room to move and explore, and redefine things as we see fit, since we don’t have to worry about conforming to the whole heteronormative thing.
Yay for webisodes about sexy nerdiness starring the two of you!
[Reply]
Right on Diana & Professor Crandell !!
I adore the format. Casual, comfortable discussions like this are a pleasure to watch……. you both truly compliment each other. I don’t know whether it is a planned balance of input, or simply the ‘natural’ approach, but the pace is nice and your genuine respect for each other is obvious.
Thank you for the video …… great idea.
I’m looking forward to further installments.
LBDL
xxoo
[Reply]
In many Native American cultures, feminine men and masculine women tended to be incorporated into the activities of the opposite gender. There was a very famous “berdache” (Hopi? not sure) who was quite outgoing and attracted the attention of white settlers who invited her as a diplomat to meet the Washington DC elite. Throughout the time she traveled and interacted with the white world, no one knew she was really a man. In my reading about this, I didn’t get clear on whether the femme men and butch women were engaged in relationships with people of the same sex, but I imagine they were since they were treated as the gender they appeared to be in every other way.
I imagine butch/femme has been an ancient universal practice in indigenous cultures and widely used throughout history for queer survival. (Don’t have any research on that. It just makes sense.)
[Reply]
I agree with the French commenter. I believe that this phenomena arose much earlier. Certainly in the UK you can find hints of these kind of flexible gender relationships in the 19th Century and in London in the 18th. They may have little to do with modern American butch-fem memes but I think it points to the idea that perhaps these are recurring themes within the emerging queer community. I certainly think that you can trace something like this in England (I say England rather than Britain deliberately to late 19th Century) and in NYC to the same period.
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Can anyone tell me how this “blog” works? I think I m in big trouble here
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pls pass on this video far & wide:
Burn It Down
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMVi4xwCuUo&eurl=http://dailypuma.blogspot.com/
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“Good lovin’”……Okay, that look - those smiles you gave each other after that statement were priceless…….
Looking forward to the weekly installments - could be a tad longer if possible.
Too cute,
Tex
[Reply]
That sent me running for my copy of Lillian Faderman’s “Odd Girls and Twilight Lovers.” I remember how enlightening her chapter on the 1950s, “Butch, Femmes, and Kikis” was for me when I first read it years ago.
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I haven’t catch at the end, what you want people to brainstorm for?
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…”masculine women were dating prostitute”.
I would love to meet a french woman who dared that!
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I wanted to said something but because i’m french, i would not dare…
I’v met a lot (not just some) of prostitutes in Paris lesbian scene when i lived there. (and it was not in 1940)
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They’d be longer if Prof C and I could manage to stay on one thought for more than a sec. I think Moon had to cut them up into shorter segments in order to keep us from rambling all over the place
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I’m glad someone said something about those smiles, definitely priceless
Thanks for the segment ladies, can’t wait for the next one!
- Andy
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Not too long! It took 10 minutes to download the 12 MB file. I don’t always have a high speed connection, and this is one discussion I don’t want to miss, lol.
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More coupling?
You know how I love a good rumor.
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Can you tell me exactly where ? The address may be?
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Sorry about this mess upstairs I m just new here
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http://en.gravatar.com/
you must use the same email here and there
[Reply]
it was on a place call “privilege” anciently name “katmandou”. but its close now.
[Reply]
hi Allegra
what do you want to know about the site ? it seems you can post ?
welcome anyway.
lmi
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Thanks Imi I m a fast learner.
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May be she kept the address in her secret kinky notebook.
By the way can you tell me how to put my photo here ?
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i can see that
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I thought she was talking about the address of the prostitutes. lol
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Goodness ! you might be right !
Allegra can you tell us ?
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One of these days we’ve got to meet, lol! I love a dirty and twisted mind!
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Yes that’s right. I m interested about the prostitutes address. But I guess I have to wait for Yonks to tell us
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Yonks lives in Quebec now. I’m not sure she still has acquaintances among French prostitutes. Yes, you should ask her.
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lmao now that does sound familiar ?
Message for Moon …
Please let them jump all over the place.
mmm meaning of course, change topics etc.
when ever i have to focus on just one, then i feel like i am in class / school.
So hack yeah, i don’t mind them talking the way one would talk in a normal conversation.
You switch forth and back on things then to do you not?
lol
besides it is interesting to see how peoples minds work and what they come up with in relation to things /topics et.
so, go ahead diana & Prof C . . .
Rambleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
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just sign up on gravatar site (you have to use the same email on both sites, Vp gravetar) dowload your picture and that’s it !
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Grazie mille. I ll be back soon !!!
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http://www.planetout.com/news/history/archive/butch.html
[Reply]
You guys are both right. Although what we were referring to specifically was not necessarily masculine-feminine lesbian couples but butch-femme as the identity itself exists today.
[Reply]
Actually, you can trace the “butch-femme” roles back to the US Civil War. There were more than a few womyn who “passed” for male who were in both the Union and Confederate forces fighting along side the men, while their partners served behind the battle lines as nurses and cooks. In at least one case I’m a little aware of, the Union Army had a woman serving as an artillery officer, company commander if I remember right. While there was no information on her sexual preference (such issues were irrelevant in wars back then), she allegedly did have a female companion with her who took care of her personal needs.
I’ll have to look this one up. I learned of it doing Civil War re-enactments from a woman who was able to prove the story true, which resulted in her and her partner being able to directly participate in actual combat re-enactments.
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Ooohhh shit !!! lol
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PS. Tori, it’s so awesome to see you here!
[Reply]
oh yes! Passing women are a whole different cool topic. We should do a little thing on that phenomena too!
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I spent a little portion of my life on a reservation (read concentration camp) at a federal “Indian” school. It was kind of interesting interacting with the few traditional elders, who had me pegged from the moment they met me. I kind of wish the school was like that, but it was run by “good church-goin’ folk” who were less than tolerant of any gender variances.
The interesting thing was, I was accepted “as is” by indigenous people who grew up in a more traditional environment, but was a target of those who had been “mainstreamed” into white society.
This was the first time in my life anyone, except for my grandparents, had accepted me for me.
[Reply]
I think in that case, i really don’t know now but 10 or 15 year ago, it was hardly financially sustainable to have lesbians dancing club in Paris, so some of these club have to make allegiance with who run the night scene.
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Is it an emergency???
I feel so sorry for you.
You know, we, parisians, are not made in marble…
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Sei italiana? Da dove?
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You are laughing… now…
Where are you from ?
[Reply]
Hey, you got your picture to show! There is no turning back now.
Just read and when you find something interesting, click on reply and let us know what you are thinking.
Don’t worry, we’re friendly folk. A bit bitchy now and then, but mostly friendly.
[Reply]
this blog work by enslaving innocent peoples who walk in
and its only the beginning of the troubles
[Reply]
Allegra is your problem that you don’t see the video?
you should have at least flash player 9 downloaded, if you are using the latest version of IE or Firefox or safari i think you should be good.
let us know what might be your trouble in viewing the blog and we can help.
thanks
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I assure all of what you said here… as an old parisian who has also known “le katmandou”.
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Interesting
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Hmmm. I hadn’t made that differentiation. Perhaps it’s because when I came out older lesbian couples were butch/femme in the extreme. Most of them actually lived their lives as a male/female couple so they could pass in the larger world. Butches had men’s names–Duke and Larry are two I remember.
In the early-mid 70s, there was a deliberate effort by many lesbian feminist dykes I knew to throw off those “stereotypes”. In certain circles, butch/femme was politically incorrect. That was about the same time “Kiki” became a style more fashionable than the political dykes, somewhat androgynous, definitely favoring shaving body hair and walking the line between butch and femme. I’m glad we’ve come full circle and can celebrate individuality without either the need to pass or to deny our natural self-expression. It feels great to embrace my butchitude.
[Reply]
you deprive your femme of the show of your dripping self changing a tire under the rain? thats must have been very frustrating for her, you cruel.
femmes love to see butch at work, i realized it at a job where there where big windows separate the workshop and the office and all the secretary and the accounting woman stare at me welding, hammering, grinding.. (and they were all married womans)
[Reply]
I grew up in a family that required each and every one of us kids to know how to strip down an engine and put it back together before we were allowed to get a driver license. My stepfather said he didn’t want to have to come out in the rain and snow at 3am to fix something simple.
Having said that, AAA is great for those rainy days on the side of a freeway when you have a flat or weren’t paying attention to the fuel gauge. That’s why people pay for the service. If I’m in a parking lot or my driveway, I’ll change my own flat. If I’m in crappy weather on the shoulder of a busy freeway, I’ll call AAA.
If I’m in my rig and broke down, I’ll call my employer. I may know how to fix things on it, but I’m not allowed to because I’m a driver, not a mechanic. Besides, everything on this thing outweighs me, lol.
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What a wonderful experience to be both seen for who we are and not only accepted, but I imagine you were also respected.
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Not everyone has come “full circle” into a mode of acceptance and tolerance, unfortunately. A classic example of this is the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival, as well as other “womyn only” events organized by what I term “the old guard,” which are particularly hostile towards anyone that deviates from gender “norms” as they perceive them, especially transgender and intersexed persons.
Trans-men are seen as gender traitors, while trans-women are seen as predatory invaders. Those who are in relationships with us are seen as “confused and in need of guidance.” Such events are always billed as for “womyn born womyn only,” and adopts the very same gender definitions they claim to oppose. This line of thinking goes so far as to segregate male children into “special areas” that will prevent them from “negatively effecting the spirit of womyn.”
What is really weird is I have mixed feelings about this particular form of discrimination being used at these particular events. On the one hand, I think the organizers really need to get with the program and learn a bit about gender and dump their stereotypical views. On the other hand, I know there are men out there who would go to great lengths to get into such events and cause harm to women. I figure that, since I can’t change the discriminatory policies and the bigotry behind them without also solving the very real security issues, I just voice my views about the bigotry but stay away from the events so predators can’t get in.
Yeah, talk about a huge moral conflict.
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Yonks, you are driving me crazy !!
I am a femme girl, who would never deny herself the orgasmic pleasure of… watching a butch girl dripping, grinding and hammering away !!
Thank you Yonks…. I’m planning on having some dreams, in about an hour, that will rock my world…. and for this, I thank you.
LBDL
xxoo
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I’ve been on the road now for 10 weeks. The image you just planted in my head had nothing to do with welding.
Thank you!
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so you’re an exhibitionist?
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LOL, I thought I was the only one that noticed that!
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I met an anthropologist who did wrote a book on “berdeches” (not sure of the spelling). The book was written from a gay man’s perspective, but useful nonetheless. It seems trans-folk would usually fill spiritual and healing roles mostly, having as we do a special insight into the complexities of gender from a variety of perspectives. Amongst traditionals, this still applies to some extent. Amongst the “mainstreamed” (read assimilated), typical “white man’s” views are applied.
Prior to the invasion of 1492, natives in the Americas never had issues with sexuality or gender differences, believing that there was an infinite variety to the expression and combination of each. Unfortunately, this would change dramatically when Europeans arrived. The Spanish, in particular, would execute on sight any transgender or homosexual person they encountered, a standing order at the time from the Catholic Church (which largely controlled Europe at the time).
Of course, many things changed for us after 1492, but that’s a whole different discussion.
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Thanks guys for your warm welcome. I think I am in the right way but don’t step away !!!!!!!
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What? Are you trying to scare me? Well I have bad news for you!
I AM NOT SCARED ! And by the way I would like to see you working !!!!
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I didn’t say that you are in marble but I m just a curious person and I like to discover new things in life
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I think is not polite to speak foreign languages here!
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Lol. No… I just meant that if you need something in emergency, perhaps we won’t stay like statues of marble, you see?
Do you live in Paris?
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Allegra non moderata?
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You can see her work on OC, she is (gifted and very) good (I saw it “live”).
http://www.ourchart.com/user/155701/photos
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I’m curious
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This is the answer for the previous question (there was no reply there):
It’s not an emergency but thanks anyway.
I don’t live in Paris I just collect information “just in case” (for emergency)
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Who are you anyway? The inspector of Velvetpark? Am I supposed to pass the entrance examinations?
Anyway you won the first round I live in Spain
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the old Entrance Examiner scenario. very hot. “let me inspect your velvet park” indeed. Dornac, tu m’epate.
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Erin are you in the committee too!!! Am I passed or ….
Je suis inquiet
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To all comments below.
I am working on my diplomacy, so, please, be patient, I am a beginner.
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allegra, just relax & let the Inspector do her work. she’s a beginner. they fumble a bit. whatever you do, don’t flinch.
i wasn’t asked to be on the committee. i’m a voyeur.
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Thanks for the link. Very nice blades.
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thanks for the advertising… and your kindness
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those spaniards must’ve been shooting a lot of their own priests, without whom there would have been no colonization…
the same indigenous spirit applied heavily in hawaii, where the tradition survived through the 19th century, i believe, and that horrible regime change compliments Dole Pineapple. help, Moonalicious. there’s something queer about hawaii still. people sense that when mr. o vacations there…
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How do you you two keep all that history straight? I have a hard time with dates related to my own life!
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Before I got my license, my dad parked my car on a hill and made me change the tire. I’ve changed tires in some ugly situations (mostly when I was in the Army) but I agree, just cause I can doesn’t mean I hafta.
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chi se ne importa?
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I can detail a car! Maybe we should open a one stop shop - Lesbians Who Do Cars!
Whattaya think, girls?
Tex
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Rusty………
“Before I got my license, my dad parked my car on a hill and made me change the tire.”
OMG. I think if I had been your Mom, I would have had a L-O-N-G talk with your Dad…..
Callin’ AAA,
LBDL
xxoo
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That is BEYOND hot…..
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funny i actually need a little detailing on my car…
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“Lesbians Who Do Cars!”
I don’t know that’s open to many interpretations and we might attract the wrong crowd. lol
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io! mi mancano le italiane (e anche le greche)!!
[Reply]
Off topic
Just wanted to say Happy New Year, Erin. I am loving your comments as usual - sorry for my lack of comments in return - I don’t feel clever enough to respond to most of what you say!
LMZ, Dornac and I are enjoying the snow over here today!
Steph
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http://www.outhistory.org/wiki/WOW_Festival:_New_York_City;_October_2-19,_1980-present
This presentation has passed, but bibliography and other information on your theater topic…
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It’s more rude not to answer questions.
We can translate.
- are you italian?
- Who cares?
- I do ! I miss italian and greek women !
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well, isn’t american a foreign language to some people? the web is international. we americans enjoy being reminded there are other languages. we get sick of american. everyone speaks it here. como vai?
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I’m with Erin - if it’s more comfortable to speak in the native at times, it’s cool. BUT, I do have a request - if you’re talking about things sensuous, please add the English subtitles
Don’t want to miss the hot thoughts,
Tex
[Reply]
as vanessa (yes, that vanessa) once said to me, “being clever isn’t enough.” i didn’t know what she meant then. it’s taken me… nearly 40 years to find out. thank you for letting me know my “cleverness” is off-putting. if i promise to be dull, will you respond?
happy new year!
hey wait, snow where? dornac’s in old blighty?
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“not clever enough”: are you mad???
WTF?
Hey Steph !!! come back on earth !
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wow. the WOW Cafe, an amazing dyke institution. too great to be believed. did you make it to the conference? do you know their work?
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Oh lordy, I didn’t mean it like that! (I have an uncanny knack of making a compliment come across as the exact opposite…) I promise to respond if you promise that you will NEVER be dull.
There is snow in London and Paris today so we are united across the channel…
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blighty
My researches about this play on word was really interesting, thank you.
Do you mean that I have an old Empire british -old fashion- accent when the snow coming from England is dropping on my mouth?
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Okay, maybe clever is the wrong word - not as well informed/well read maybe a better expression.
Thanks for what you said though! Am smiling away at my desk…
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Anyway, with Erin, you will be stuck, so… just live with it.
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deal. no offense taken.
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Do you think any city could take that much classy, intelligent honesty in one place? Looking forward to it!
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Is “SHY” the right word?
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fuck well-read. go with what ya got. add as you go.
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Don’t feel bad, Steph. Sometimes I’m intimidated by Erin’s big, beautiful brain, too. But I’ve found that if one flirts with her a bit, she doesn’t seem to notice how badly read one is.
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if so, i’d love to hear it. we’ll be skyping soon. what a trip to actually put voices to the words. not sure i could stand it.
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Possiblement….
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shy is so hot.
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No, I didn’t. I actually found this site last night - was reading about the role reversals in theater actually - yeah I know, great minds
I wish I had known about it when I was in NYC taking in Expatriate. I will make it a point next time….I am not a thespian, but I think it would be fun to “show up” on a Tuesday and give it a go…..you never know, there just might be a part for a lesbian Texan…
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That’s what
dirtygood books are for.[Reply]
Lordy, hasn’t school started yet?
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“This is mostly due to the fact that, until recently, doctors and related health care workers in the gender care area would require MtF’s to be ultra-feminine (read Stepford wives), and FtM’s to be ultra-masculine (read assholes). The results of the other trans-folk were what is referred to as “practiced,†insofar as these individuals learned through painful experience to give the expected, albeit dishonest, answers, or be denied care and treatment.”
OMG. I love the way you explained this. So enlightening.
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As Erin said… it’s hot.
be careful, the snow is melting.
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Have I ever told ya’ll that I’m shy?
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It most certainly is…. from the heat coming off my face….
Tex - I am glad I am not the only one!
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To BOTH WOMEN BELOW
ooowww
lalalala
hot women?
[Reply]
Running out of reply buttons!
You are fabulous!
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Not surprised. Between people so often seeing only what they expect and the way that war encourages us to ignore issues not directly related to survival, what is more startling to me is that gender and orientation are ever an issues there. I would love to see the whole story. It would make a great novel. Or perhaps, when everyone gets tired of all the reality crap they are pushing on TV, a new show.
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Oh yes, why not? I am more an alto than a soprano. I would be glad to hear your voice.
But… I… don’t have chants’ lessons.
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Ahhh, the old “euphemism” ploy…..
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I do believe we can work something out…..
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Yeah, why are you the one who’s expected to change your style? That doesn’t seem fair!
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The next time the “lady” asks you to remove your tie, might I suggest a use for it?
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Oh hell no … Wear what you want!
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see freud. she’s projecting & repressing. your tie totally turns her on. wear it. you can tie it on onstage to REALLY get her going.
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I feel the conflict, albeit from a different perspective. Perhaps due to personal history, or maybe just because I feel so strongly the “I am Woman”, when I heard about a totally penis free space I was majorly pumped. Unfortunately, by the time the next MWF came around, I was already having issues over the exclusion.
I guess I would like to be healthy and secure enough to say, sure, everyone who is woman should be able to come. But then, I know how uncomfortable I am having to use a bathroom with a penis present. I know that it is a personal problem and history that I need to get over. As such, I make a concerted effort not to let my own struggles negatively impact others. Who knows how successful or lacking those efforts may be. Its not something one can honestly evaluate while living the experience.
On the other hand, I have come to know some individuals who experience this discrimination. Women who were born women, in their hearts and spirits. I have no problem being comfortable with these ladies in any circumstance. I would love the opportunity to experience a women’s space with these powerful female spirits.
So, there is the quandary. As you said, there will always be men out there twisting themselves six ways to hell to mess with us. For me, that has always been penis. Until someone moved this mouse’s cheese. So how do we provide a place for all true women, not dependent on biology, and yet protect that space from impostors? How do we validate our sisters who struggle to be acknowledged as their truest selves, without increasing our vulnerability to others?
[Reply]
What ? “Lesbians who do it in the cars”?
[Reply]
Here’s hoping
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“Autoerotica” doesn’t sound quite right, though.
[Reply]
I do love ‘breaking in’ cars…have ‘broken in’ every car I’ve owned….and the cars of others…..
[Reply]
Ditto
[Reply]
Hey Tex…….
Remind me to never ‘loan’ you my BMW…….yikes.
It’s NEVER been ‘broken in’ !!
Oh my, you are a wild Texan !!……
Grabbin’ the Turtle Wax,
LBDL
xxoo
[Reply]
you seem more than usually frisky. t’es en vacance? c’est pour ca? britannic snow got you flushed?
[Reply]
Not a history teacher, huh? You know, Tae, you remember…
In fourteen hundred ninety-two,
Columbus sailed the ocean blue…….
Here’s some more:
What did Dela-ware?
A New Jersey…
What did Tenne-see?
The same thing that Arkan-sas…
Did Ida-ho the garden?
I don’t know, Al-ask-a….
Being a,
Tex-as
[Reply]
Well, great minds…
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I was on holidays until today, yes.
Today was a cool “rentrée” so I take advantage of it for the last hours I have left for myself.
I am more than usual laughing,I don’t know why. Euphoria… perhaps it’s because of the snow.
[Reply]
c’est tres belle ton euphorie. merci de bien vouloir le partager.
[Reply]
Oh jolly playmate, I cannot play with you. My doggy’s got the flu. And me too.
[Reply]
Are you sure?
In 1493, Columbus crossed the deep blue sea. No?
*confused*
[Reply]
You know, Yonks is not only making herself her own blades.
Once, we were walking in the wild nature of a lost island of Greece and I saw her close to a lake, taking a sword from it, that a hand of a woman seemed to give her.
(I hope that this story will last your dreams a little more than one hour).
-contributing activly to myths
[Reply]
LBDL i’m blushing… knowing you, i can picture whats happen in your head, Rachel Meddow changing your tire under the rain, Rachel Meddow in a blue work outfit hammering, grinding…. Rachel Meddow…………………………………………….!!!
[Reply]
Add: the naked woman gave her the sword, Yonks went away with it, and I finally could have a very nice conversation alone with the naked woman.
and now I am waiting for Yonk’s answer, patiently… giggle giggle.
[Reply]
this is a beautiful story nowhere written by chretien de troyes.
[Reply]
Thats why as a butch, you should always get two woman, they keep each other entertain with nice conversation while you fell asleep
(i regret already this one, im gona pay!!!)
[Reply]
SHHH!
[Reply]
Cool - thanks for the tip!! I am sure I can implement your advice without too much trouble…..
As an aside, as I know you keep up with things TV related, we are in the throes of Celebrity Big Brother here in the UK and I am sitting here with Latoya Jackson belting out “Wanna be startin’ something” in the background….. it’s all very surreal….
[Reply]
Smooch!
Feel better,
Tex
[Reply]
Are you a voyeur?
Nah, exhibitionists do it on purpose, i was totally innocent (for once)
okay, i admit, they must have been fascinating by a woman welder more than by my butchy hotitude.
[Reply]
Ha!
[Reply]
Yonks……
You are clairvoyant!!
Rachel was wet, dripping and hammering away….. I was grinding.
What a magnificent dream……..or, was it real ??
LBDL
xxoo
[Reply]
YOU was grinding?
You know that 7 inch grinder are very heavy, you cant grind with your arms because it could jump out of you hands so you have to tight your arms against your body, press the grinder on the side of your hip and you grind by moving with your legs and your hip, back and forward, left and right… its very sexy to watch…
[Reply]
Did you say 7 inches ??………….. I am a very naughty girl, and I am having some very naughty thoughts right now.
I bet it is VERY sexy to watch !!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvimAwIuq-Q
[Reply]
I’d love to keep going this manual work classes but i have to go sleep, next time, i will talk about the highest importance of the rhythm wile hamering
stay tuned
[Reply]
uh… i have a doubt. is grinding have another signification then the one they tell in the dictionary?
[Reply]
i’m a switch… “totally innocent” huh? well, those days are over… let’s see, butchy woman welder’s hotitude. where’s the contradiction?
[Reply]
BUTCHES! oh! You all think alike, don’t you? There is a segment coming up where both Moon and Crandall tell me I have to talk less
[Reply]
Which one do you regret : me or la dame du lac (the lady of the lake)?
[Reply]
You see, no need to be censored, the macho-butch reveals herself naturally…
[Reply]
I didn’t mean that…
i didn’t want to…
I DIDN’T MAKE IT ON PURPOSE!!
[Reply]
LOL
for ups and downs
below and above
[Reply]
Haha! Good one.
[Reply]
Jello!
I had jello for brunch and toast for dinner. I know, I get excited easily. Hope to be back to work and off the daytime net tomorrow.
[Reply]
the nice music of your voices who cocoon my dreams.
[Reply]
To Yonks, on the comment below :
puurrr… (my new voice)
[Reply]
OMG… you guys have CELEBRITY Big Brother?!?!?!
So. Freaking. JEALOUS.
Sadly, I am not kidding.
[Reply]
Oh yes!!
The other representatives of the US are Coolio (who is driving everyone mad) and Verne Troyer.
The rest are low level Brit celebs.
It is GREAT entertainment value….
[Reply]
I think that watch a woman welder is watching a social evolution that you may heard of but rarely witnesses.
Watching a butchy hotitude at work involve a kind of implicit sexual charge who is not central for the sociological observation..
[Reply]
Yes.
[Reply]
i dunno. i think a kind of implicit sexual charge IS central for the sociological observation… which is why people become sociologists
[Reply]